E9x M3 Owners - Mileage/Bearings

[individj]

you're obviously talking about the fuel theory. the low ron fuel being an issue.

 

[S65B44]

For the guys who are actually doing their homework on these motors and reasoning behind it.

There is a VERY informative wiki, drawn up a user called "Regular Guy on m3post". He has spent a crazy amount of hours measuring the clearances on any S65 motor that has come his way or could get his hands on.

If you take the time and read through the wiki, it is concluded that the clearance the motors have is less than half of the industry norm. Now add the thick oil (10w/60), and high compression of the motor, you get factors that ALL contribute to the issue.
Doing oil analysis on the newer motors (2010 +) doesn't really help much, as bmw stopped using a lead layer on the bearings, which was the element that people kept a close eye on during oil analysis.

Unfortunately for me, I was also ignorant and didn't believe it would happen... till it did.
No one is trying to scare anyone, I bet majority of the users commenting on this thread, have either had their bearings go, or know of someone that has had the issue.

For whoever is interested in reading up.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

 

[AndreasSA]

We tried the oil analysis also with a lot of cars and it failed in nearly all cases. We were not able to determine if running bearing just started or not. If it was detected by oil analysis the bearings were already seriously damaged....and the crank too....

Bearings survive longer in SA (normally) because your fuel is not as good (no 98 Octan, less power output), speed limit and most of the guys are not reving the car as often....you also do not have as cold winters where wear and tear is high during start of the engine...

 

[Fordkoppie]

My point is that the bearings are not the sole reason for failure and if the other issues are treated also, bearings will not be a concern. You can replace bearings today and next week have those brand new bearings seize or spin due to the other factors mentioned above

Would you mind elaborating on these "other issues" and how, if they are treated, will prevent bearing failure?

Yes I would mind, alot of it is theoretical and I wouldn't like to post something I am not 100% on myself. For MY OWN use I am doing some research on minimising the bearing wear and its failure based on cases available on the net.

First you spoke about "issues" and "treating" them.
How can you treat an issue if its only a theory?

So please, share this theory, so the rest of us can work with it, or dismiss it.

 

[jettaz]

Gosh, what have we here......

I was away for 2 days sick and now im reading this.... not sure if I should stay sick. LOL!

My thread was merely about experiences of the owners and not around the "he said she said" type of thing....

im pretty well aware of these motors running bearings - but how often here in CPT are we seeing this happen? I want to know if its a common occurrence here and if so, where do we find the good guys to help us in CPT.

Yes doing this type of preventative maintenance is good and is "insurance" in the long run....
But really now, saying ALL of them will run a bearing is kind of pushing it.

These things do happen, all motors have there strong and weak points. unfortunately the S65 has the "bearing issue" (Kakkest issue to have IMO)

All we can do is try and look after them :cartel:


regarding that link that was sent - http://www.wearcheck.co.za

Maybe oil samples will be a good thing...
but then again the S65 and S54 just had a oil change....so il give it sometime n then check it out.

Thanks for the input guys....Dunno how I feel about it. :tiptoe:

PS: Whats OP?? :hammerhead:

 

[Pho3niX90]

OP = original poster.

The price from tunetech was around R25000. That included oil, bearings, labour, new oil level sensor, and oil pump recon along with all the bits and bobs that come along with it.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[ASH M]

Well I'm still battling to get to 40k kms on a 8 year old car. Especially after BMW suspended an expired MP, sorta lost interest in the car for a while lol. Guess 2016 should call for some rise and shine once again.

Anyway my 2c from what I've seen. BMW changed bearing design early 2009. Apparently part numbers can confirm this, also ESS tuning mention that they recommend bearing change on "pre 2009" M3s when doing their supercharger kit.

I remember seeing I write up many years back by Dinan Motorsport on their stroker kit for the M3. As we know they where the first to do a stroker, and according to them they brought the bearing issue to BMWs attention. As the first few customers cars that they did stroker kits on had wear on the bearings. Then again they mentioned that these vehicles where pushed on the track and not just daily drivers.

Than again this was a long time ago, the E9x M3 was still new and mileages where low. These days I hear of a few that went.

For me it's a must do before you pass the 100k km mark. Too many motors have gone pop.

I've been saying it for a while I need to get the bottom end LC and drop in a S/C lol...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4

 

[S65B44]

Ash M... the bearing change from bmw had nothimg to do with resolving the issue of small clearence. It was new bearings due to the new european laws of lead not allowed anymore. So they started using bearings with no lead layer.

My only way forward with my motor was a complete rebuild as i intend to keep the car for long. I got in touch with a very reputable engine designer in regards to the s65, and got re-designed forged internals, that overcome the clearance issue and beef up all the internals. Lowered compression too.

 

[922-ZN]

First you spoke about "issues" and "treating" them.
How can you treat an issue if its only a theory?

So please, share this theory, so the rest of us can work with it, or dismiss it.

Please don't get technical on the use of the english language, I know the circles you spin in and you are far from being an idiot so please don't stoop to that level.

If all you are trying to do is discredit what I am saying then good for you, hope you sleep better at night:thumbs:

 

[AdiS]

First you spoke about "issues" and "treating" them.
How can you treat an issue if its only a theory?

So please, share this theory, so the rest of us can work with it, or dismiss it.

Please don't get technical on the use of the english language, I know the circles you spin in and you are far from being an idiot so please don't stoop to that level.

If all you are trying to do is discredit what I am saying then good for you, hope you sleep better at night:thumbs:

You have quite assertively suggested that there are 'other' causes to bearing wear that can be addressed in order to make worn/spun bearings a non-issue, yet you are unable to even mention or vaguely explain what they are. Pardon me, and anyone else who wants to call you out on this.

In the pursuit of a healthy debate where good arguments are valued and poor arguments are dismissed, I second Fordkoppie's request.

 

[terrynew]

First you spoke about "issues" and "treating" them.
How can you treat an issue if its only a theory?

So please, share this theory, so the rest of us can work with it, or dismiss it.

Please don't get technical on the use of the english language, I know the circles you spin in and you are far from being an idiot so please don't stoop to that level.

If all you are trying to do is discredit what I am saying then good for you, hope you sleep better at night:thumbs:

You have quite assertively suggested that there are 'other' causes to bearing wear that can be addressed in order to make worn/spun bearings a non-issue, yet you are unable to even mention or vaguely explain what they are. Pardon me, and anyone else who wants to call you out on this.

In the pursuit of a healthy debate where good arguments are valued and poor arguments are dismissed, I second Fordkoppie's request.

But he has answered the question when he said: Yes I would mind, alot of it is theoretical and I wouldn't like to post something I am not 100% on myself. For MY OWN use I am doing some research on minimising the bearing wear and its failure based on cases available on the net. So why cant you respect his answer.

I see I am funny and in denial better go so see the doc. All the people replying that there is an issue and showing findings of other people and other forums posts but no one is saying conclusively what their finding is is and what is the cause.is.I am not bothered about results in other countries but only in South Africa. See what the figure of E90/E92/93 sales were in South Africa and what the failure rate of bearings in South Africa is . If the failure rate is in the majority then we definitely got a problem.

I have nothing against people giving advice but please dont try and force it upon other people.

 

[individj]

all of this was because of your statement. no 1 was forcing anything we were just stating the facts. anyways I'm fairly intelligent so i won't entertain this anymore.

 

[AdiS]

But he has answered the question when he said: Yes I would mind, alot of it is theoretical and I wouldn't like to post something I am not 100% on myself. For MY OWN use I am doing some research on minimising the bearing wear and its failure based on cases available on the net. So why cant you respect his answer.

I see I am funny and in denial better go so see the doc. All the people replying that there is an issue and showing findings of other people and other forums posts but no one is saying conclusively what their finding is is and what is the cause.is.I am not bothered about results in other countries but only in South Africa. See what the figure of E90/E92/93 sales were in South Africa and what the failure rate of bearings in South Africa is . If the failure rate is in the majority then we definitely got a problem.

I have nothing against people giving advice but please dont try and force it upon other people.

If one does not have a good understanding of something, then I agree it makes absolute sense not to try and explain it when one risks failing to do so adequately. However, it is not cogent to then vehemently put forward the aforementioned as fact, and use it as a counter argument to other points in a discussion. That would simply be like saying " I really have a good counter argument to your point, but Im not going to say it because i don't understand it".

Anyway, you've made it clear that you do not believe the risk of bearing failure on your engine is high enough to warrant preventative action. You are quite entitled to adopt that position in this discussion, however it has also been quite adequately argued, with many supporting references (extensive links etc) that bearing failures DO happen. It is a world wide noted trend, both overseas AND in South Africa, that all the high revving S engines (S54, S65, & S85) experience premature and/or catastrophic bearing failure.

I think it can be agreed that in the specific case of the S65, it is not known exactly when, and under what circumstances bearing failure will occur, and thus it remains difficult to predict exactly when the risk increases to a point where it is worthwhile to take preventative action. Every engine experiences a different life, and there is not yet a consensus of what the mileage interval of highest risk is. If one considers the anecdotal evidence of local shops, I would argue that it has happened frequently enough to be considered a credible risk. Lets use the fact that Tune Tech are regularly rebuilding engines due to this issue.

Whether you or the OP consider it risky to run the engine over 100 000km without taking preventative action is purely a function of your personal risk profile, and your personal belief in the extent that this issue exists. I believe that there is sufficient evidence to suggest the risk is notable, and as these engines age I believe that more and more evidence will present itself, as was the case with the S54 (no one seems to doubt that bearings are an issue on these engines anymore).

In conclusion, no one is forcing advice on anyone. Most of the contributors to this thread have made astute arguments as to the fact that risk of bearing failure exists albeit within relatively unknown parameters, with the common piece of advice being to address it in a preventative manner to as to avoid a substantially larger repair in the future. If you think your engine will be fine, then you are wiling to accept the risk of inaction.

 

[car_fanatic]

Hey buddy if you looked well after your car there should be no reason to change bearings. I dont know what the hype is about this knock knock kak. If you see most of the people that has replaced bearings at high or low mileage their bearings are not bad at all. Most of the pictures I have seen is just normal wear. I dont know where people get the idea bearings is not suppose to show wear. If bearings did not wear then we would be having disastrous engine failures.

People sending in vids of bearing knocks and if you listen to it then it is just the sound of a normal high performance V8 engine making a noise. You can clearly define when it is a bearing knock. These engines are a work of art and if looked after properly you should enjoy it for a long time. Proper cold start and good maintenance then there should be no problems. I do all that to mine and I ride it to its limits and enjoy every single minute of it. There are owners that have over 200k on the clock that have not changed bearings.

So the engines that had disastrous failures failed because the bearings didn't wear?

 

[terrynew]

Hey buddy if you looked well after your car there should be no reason to change bearings. I dont know what the hype is about this knock knock kak. If you see most of the people that has replaced bearings at high or low mileage their bearings are not bad at all. Most of the pictures I have seen is just normal wear. I dont know where people get the idea bearings is not suppose to show wear. If bearings did not wear then we would be having disastrous engine failures.

People sending in vids of bearing knocks and if you listen to it then it is just the sound of a normal high performance V8 engine making a noise. You can clearly define when it is a bearing knock. These engines are a work of art and if looked after properly you should enjoy it for a long time. Proper cold start and good maintenance then there should be no problems. I do all that to mine and I ride it to its limits and enjoy every single minute of it. There are owners that have over 200k on the clock that have not changed bearings.

So the engines that had disastrous failures failed because the bearings didn't wear?

Please if you want to chime in then I suggest you read properly before making remarks.

 

[Peter@AEW]

@terrynew

On the engines which I have worked on after they have experienced catastrophic bearing failure I have noticed that the main bearings are comparable to new and the big ends are showing copper.

Bearings do wear no argument on that however ones definition of wear needs to be within manufacturer tolerance and anything beyond that would be considered as failure.

During October November and December last year I rebuilt 3 engines which had covered (from highest to lowest) 198000Kms 165000Kms and 80000Kms.

The 198000 kM engine failed due to the fact that the chain tensioner piston backed out its housing and the subsequent oil loss destroyed the engine.
The other two engines failed due to big end bearing wear being excessive.

Draw from the above your own conclusion however I can tell you that on my son's S54 we replaced bearings at roughly 110Ks and they were down to copper...all of them.

Should you wish pm me your email addy and I shall send you some pics.

 

[Xack]

I honestly don't understand why we had to discuss this in such detail, when we've got countless maintenance threads, from various //M cars with different mileage, including a few V8 derivatives, jus a quick search, you'll find a few S54 bearing swops by Peter above and Gerts(Ratslaaf@OBDWorx ) v8 m3 bearing replacement thread should pop up....all local cars, home brewed...OP, the answer you've been looking for was right under your nose all this time.YES there are bearing issues on all the //M motors and NO you can't put a band aid on it like somebody suggested IN THIS THREAD:skit:

 

[Kimeran]

You know everybody in Germany, seems to be your go to line. Oh and everything ever possible on any BMW ever has been done in Germany also

Anyway, to the owners of the cars that have had issues, personally, I think you're being a little hard on the OP as well as the issues regarding bearings, while we know it is an issue, no one can for sure(possibly aside from BMW) say that X% of motors have run bearings and now it's something ALL owners should worry about.

Quite funny that you try to judge my knowledge....:hammerhead:

Ever heard of the M owners club in Germany? Or the m-forum? No? Than you should NOT give such stupid comments!

P.S.: Do you know Tunetech? They have in average three S65 engines per week that ran bearings....

Wowzers, so averaging 156 cars per years? Or let's say 150 car per year, excluding holidays. Yikes!

You are such a damn ripper :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Anyway OP, I would say have the bearings changed for peace of mind.
You may be lucky and go a million km's without changing bearings, or you may have to change it tomorrow.
It's up to you if you want to take that risk
Like Garth said, it's like insurance

 

[Ratslaaf]

I know the guy at Auto Alpina that supplies TuneTech with rods and bearings, specifically the S65 and S85 ones. Without going into detail, they buy A LOT.

 

[individj]

unfortunately 1 of the best looking E92's in the Cape has run a bearing & is parked up