-
Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
Who is going to march on Friday the 7th April - now Wednesday 12 April
- Thread starter Ashlin
- Start date
AshG108
///Member
F21GP said:AshG108 said:F21GP said:AshG108 said:F21GP said:WIDEOPN-X3 said:
A propaganda machine!!! Hahahahaha, the media has a complete bias against the ruling party and Government and has been given a clear narrative to the public.
You eat the spew that is fed to you by the media but do not interrogate any of the things given as facts.
You then want to tell us that we support one man, when as a collective we support a organization that had the values of OR Tambo, Mandela and the freedom charter.
I thought I would leave this topic alone but you use phrases as corrupt and loot freely just because that is what you hear.
In terms of corruption indexes we are aligned with European countries and are far from the levels of corruption you are fed. We sit at a range of 50 out of 180 with 1 being the best 180 the worst.
You get so upset about Zuma corruption yet it's difficult for you to pin point so you throw Nkandla and then the rape case etc
I don't want to argue with anyone here but when my education is likened to how I vote etc I take offense. When my integrity is questioned simply by my vote I take exception. I'll be doing my masters next year by the way!!!
No one asks why we get downgraded by S&P long before June and a institution fined billions. Moodys is still holding onto their guns and may most likely downgrade us but to what end and who's interests.
Yes I may not agree with current status quo in the ANC but can facts be interrogated, I am a person just like all of you and now have to feel ashamed here due to my political views, how can that be!!!
I support the organization that fought and liberated us, I believe in its freedom charter it's former leaders who were great and idolized men.
For those that know me, I hope we can still be friends
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure thing bud, you the operative word in your 'bold' statement above is FORMER. What i do not understand and even though i do agree with Ratslaaf to a point is that Zuma-tello is no former good guy...former is dead, the guys who were good for ANC are dead and gone or on their way out.
Very few are left and even if they are, in 23 years have made no difference. Zuma is a lying, cheating, pathetic and disrepectful person...read i anyway you want cause its as i wrote it. You can deny that all day if you want but it is what it is.
Do your Masters, and be happy for yourself but there are 9 million people who are cheated out of their social grant, more than 19 million children are in extreme poverty and have no education...how can your Masters help? Oh yes, use the Masters to realize that the current ANC and its cronies are not for what the former ANC was for and are not them at all and vote for a difference. Vote for for anyone else but these corrupt guys or rather to keep the corrupt dude in power, right?
I am sorry, I agree with you voting for who fought for our liberation etc but I do not understand how you can state that you vote for former people of 23 years ago (a lot of them dead), in 2017 and smoke screen the current state of the country and use that as a reason for voting for them.
As for Venda Boy...i rate him right up there with the guys who comment on social media...i simply :facepalm:
Stopped reading at 23 years and made no difference
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Exactly like all other ANC supporters, i suppose you also stopped reading whenever you see the word corrupt after Zuma, right?
raise:
I raised my opinion, like an emotional, irrational clown you then revert to those phrases. I thought I was respectful and dignified in my response earlier but clearly you were never going to accept anything I said
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Emotional clown?
Have you ever seen lately the conditions our poor people live in, have you ever seen how many kids are starving at every street corner and begging for their next meal, have you seen the conditions that elderly people are living in around us...the squatter camps? Have you seen a persona s old as our grannies and great grannies having to walk kms to get dirty water to cleanse themselves, or use a facility that is not even 1/4 of what our one toilet is?
Don;t call me a clown when you try to justify your blind approach to life, you want to boast about your Master's degree and band of cars but I am for the people.
you are talking about your organization, read my reply to Ga-3m, I vote out the leader and not the organization. You fail to realize that, and that many others would do the same...I have been open to public sector for a while my friend, i am not emotional but the truth hurts.
ANC is great for what they have done for us, the current leader is the problem. You voting for the organization still adds a vote for him which in turn keeps him at the top and gives him the freedom to carry on his bad deeds...Tell me i am incorrect now?
I have a family and kids to worry about much like everyone else, I really want the country to get back on its feet cause I believe so much in it, and every time I travel and I long to come back home but the truth is the truth and it is evident. the organization currently has a bad leader and that has to change. I won't vote for an organization which has people who support that bad leader in blatant disregard also as we have seen.
By saying "Stopped reading after 23 years and did nothing..." maybe i have misunderstood your reply but I read it as not bothering to read the rest so I have given you more insight to my thoughts.
F21GP said:
I think some of us are so passionate about our opinons that maybe we have some misunderstandings coming across our writing than all of us having a beer/coffee and chatting around this.
Maybe that is what we should do, discuss this over a coffee or beer and mid-night run or Harry's pancakes?
:rollsmile::rollsmile::rollsmile:
F21GP
Active member
I came from those squatter camps (first few years of life) , my father did all his siblings did!! I employ 50 plus people from those type of environments and send them to tertiary institutions to further their growth and wish I could do more. If I could do more now I would.
What I see is significant amount of RDP houses all over the country,access to water has increased significantly, health care is reached further but still a major challenge and education is a major challenge too, it's those that don't deliver that have impacted on the poor and that can't all fall on government but yes there is blame.
I apologize for the clown remark uncalled for!!
When have i defended Zuma I was deliberately vague!!! There is a conference at the end of the year where branches then give input.
I also have a family and a kid to worry about but my sphere of influence is broader my vote, but immediately the environment around myself and my business.
Why do you say I boast about my degree when it was referred to in context and when have I boasted about my band of cars!!! Those cars are for everyone all my friends use them, you can drive them if you want and that is sincere.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
Since you appear to have singled out my comments let me answer you directly.
I did not "spew back" anything that I had heard in the media... I QUOTED statements made by ANC leaders which in MY OPINION reflect a lack of moral compass. Some of the statements made yesterday are diametrically opposed to the stance taken last week. So I was left with the notion that the moral fibre in those people is questionable.
Then, others have quoted news statements and there are photographs PROVING that intimidation is already taking place against those with an opinion opposite to the ANC. Was that photoshopped by the fake media??
In addition, I quoted Gwede Mantashe saying there is no way ANC MP's will vote for what the KNOW is right. How can that be misunderstood? More fake media??
You say you are doing your Masters. Congratulations and good luck. It is never easy studying and working and I admire anyone who succeeds in achieving that. May I ask what you are doing a Masters in? I would think its probably not economics. If it were, I would think that it would be clear to you that South Africa doesn't exist in a bubble. We are part of the world economy and as a junior player, we will always be led rather than lead.
The relevance of that comment is that whether we like it or not, we will be dictated to by the larger economies (yes the West). That is as certain as the rising and setting of the sun. So, what does the smart president do? The president who seeks prosperity for all in the country that he was ASKED to LEAD (side bar, I deliberately don't use the word "rule" because that implies I want to be ruled rather than led by someone inspirational)? What does that man do?
He plays diplomatic chess in the interests of the PEOPLE he SERVES. He ensures that while the West wants to dictate, within reason he goes along with it to ensure that the deals that are made are serving ALL his citizens.
What does the current president do? Serves narrow self interests. Ensure prosperity beyond comprehension for the elite "chosen ones". And to heck with the rest.
In terms of your Masters, if it were economics, I would suspect that you would accept the premise that wealth is not created by dividing it. Its a short term placebo but very quickly that party ends. So the notion of "taking control of the economy" (side bar - which is erroneously still "believed" to be in white hands) without a future vision and a clear path is suicide.
Allow me to explain. The success of IRP, the National Development Plan, and all the other wonderful "plans" that are put out there by the ANC are dependent on INVESTMENT. We are already borrowing 50% + of our GDP to simply sustain our hand out society. With this downgrading to sub investment status, aside from the obvious damage in terms of cost of borrowings rising, the inflow of external investment slows to a trickle or dries up altogether.
No problem says the ANC, we will fund it ourselves.....yeah right. How? By printing more money probably hey? Cos that will fix the problem ne?
A kindergarten kid can figure out that you can't take out more than you put in because if outflow exceeds inflow the flow stops... But then again, we have ministers in parliament who blame water shortages on the previous regime having built the dams to big because you know if the dams were smaller they would all be full. Oh wait, yes more fake news no doubt. Mokanyane was misquoted / misunderstood / or the reporter was mischievous I suppose....
I don't question your loyalty to an organisation that liberated you (and your parents) from the system designed to ensure that you didn't succeed. I do however question BLIND loyalty based on what you have openly stated is an idolizing of men that fought for those freedoms but are now gone.
Quote:
I support the organization that fought and liberated us, I believe in its freedom charter it's former leaders who were great and idolized men.
End quote
The bold underlined (my emphasis) part is what I find strange. You confirm that it is the former leaders who were great and therefore by inference the current leaders not so much.
That is what 70% of South Africans polled on social media platforms are saying (more fake news??). Get rid of the LEADER not the party. The values for which the ANC stands are not the issue. Its the recklessness and disregard for consequences of actions displayed by the CURRENT LEADERS that has many people upset.
Of course all the above is simply my opinion and like a rusty sheriffs badge we all have our on opinions....
[/quote]
I agree that FDI is 50% of our GDP but I disagree that FDI will stop or dry up, yes there would be those that have to pull out due to the risk involved due to their policies attributed to risk appetite. The country will forever be an attractive investment be it from the east or west.
Yes interest rates will go up, asset values will decrease and we will have to tighten our belts for a time. Obviously we do not operate within a economic bubble but at the same time why are we not talking about the lack of growth in the global economy.
Here are some other economies:
Belgium 1.5%
Denmark 1%
US 2.6
SA we were looking at 1.1% 2017 now considering these developed countries above there is a global slowing, so context is key.
In terms of a downgrade there are many things to consider
- The global economy‚
- Economic deterioration
- Local financial or banking crisis
- Government policy
To rectify the above will require a fiscal effort, economic policy review etc etc
Let me say your opinion is warranted and the ANC has to rectify these issues and there are people who are competent to steer the ship but branches will have to make that decision. I do not support blindly and would never say the same of you whoever you vote for we all have our views and take on things. As you have your rusty sheriff badge I also have mine.
I was in car whilst typing earlier so I may have gotten mixed up with quotes etc, apologies for anyone I quoted incorrectly.
What I see is significant amount of RDP houses all over the country,access to water has increased significantly, health care is reached further but still a major challenge and education is a major challenge too, it's those that don't deliver that have impacted on the poor and that can't all fall on government but yes there is blame.
I apologize for the clown remark uncalled for!!
When have i defended Zuma I was deliberately vague!!! There is a conference at the end of the year where branches then give input.
I also have a family and a kid to worry about but my sphere of influence is broader my vote, but immediately the environment around myself and my business.
Why do you say I boast about my degree when it was referred to in context and when have I boasted about my band of cars!!! Those cars are for everyone all my friends use them, you can drive them if you want and that is sincere.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
Since you appear to have singled out my comments let me answer you directly.
I did not "spew back" anything that I had heard in the media... I QUOTED statements made by ANC leaders which in MY OPINION reflect a lack of moral compass. Some of the statements made yesterday are diametrically opposed to the stance taken last week. So I was left with the notion that the moral fibre in those people is questionable.
Then, others have quoted news statements and there are photographs PROVING that intimidation is already taking place against those with an opinion opposite to the ANC. Was that photoshopped by the fake media??
In addition, I quoted Gwede Mantashe saying there is no way ANC MP's will vote for what the KNOW is right. How can that be misunderstood? More fake media??
You say you are doing your Masters. Congratulations and good luck. It is never easy studying and working and I admire anyone who succeeds in achieving that. May I ask what you are doing a Masters in? I would think its probably not economics. If it were, I would think that it would be clear to you that South Africa doesn't exist in a bubble. We are part of the world economy and as a junior player, we will always be led rather than lead.
The relevance of that comment is that whether we like it or not, we will be dictated to by the larger economies (yes the West). That is as certain as the rising and setting of the sun. So, what does the smart president do? The president who seeks prosperity for all in the country that he was ASKED to LEAD (side bar, I deliberately don't use the word "rule" because that implies I want to be ruled rather than led by someone inspirational)? What does that man do?
He plays diplomatic chess in the interests of the PEOPLE he SERVES. He ensures that while the West wants to dictate, within reason he goes along with it to ensure that the deals that are made are serving ALL his citizens.
What does the current president do? Serves narrow self interests. Ensure prosperity beyond comprehension for the elite "chosen ones". And to heck with the rest.
In terms of your Masters, if it were economics, I would suspect that you would accept the premise that wealth is not created by dividing it. Its a short term placebo but very quickly that party ends. So the notion of "taking control of the economy" (side bar - which is erroneously still "believed" to be in white hands) without a future vision and a clear path is suicide.
Allow me to explain. The success of IRP, the National Development Plan, and all the other wonderful "plans" that are put out there by the ANC are dependent on INVESTMENT. We are already borrowing 50% + of our GDP to simply sustain our hand out society. With this downgrading to sub investment status, aside from the obvious damage in terms of cost of borrowings rising, the inflow of external investment slows to a trickle or dries up altogether.
No problem says the ANC, we will fund it ourselves.....yeah right. How? By printing more money probably hey? Cos that will fix the problem ne?
A kindergarten kid can figure out that you can't take out more than you put in because if outflow exceeds inflow the flow stops... But then again, we have ministers in parliament who blame water shortages on the previous regime having built the dams to big because you know if the dams were smaller they would all be full. Oh wait, yes more fake news no doubt. Mokanyane was misquoted / misunderstood / or the reporter was mischievous I suppose....
I don't question your loyalty to an organisation that liberated you (and your parents) from the system designed to ensure that you didn't succeed. I do however question BLIND loyalty based on what you have openly stated is an idolizing of men that fought for those freedoms but are now gone.
Quote:
I support the organization that fought and liberated us, I believe in its freedom charter it's former leaders who were great and idolized men.
End quote
The bold underlined (my emphasis) part is what I find strange. You confirm that it is the former leaders who were great and therefore by inference the current leaders not so much.
That is what 70% of South Africans polled on social media platforms are saying (more fake news??). Get rid of the LEADER not the party. The values for which the ANC stands are not the issue. Its the recklessness and disregard for consequences of actions displayed by the CURRENT LEADERS that has many people upset.
Of course all the above is simply my opinion and like a rusty sheriffs badge we all have our on opinions....
[/quote]
I agree that FDI is 50% of our GDP but I disagree that FDI will stop or dry up, yes there would be those that have to pull out due to the risk involved due to their policies attributed to risk appetite. The country will forever be an attractive investment be it from the east or west.
Yes interest rates will go up, asset values will decrease and we will have to tighten our belts for a time. Obviously we do not operate within a economic bubble but at the same time why are we not talking about the lack of growth in the global economy.
Here are some other economies:
Belgium 1.5%
Denmark 1%
US 2.6
SA we were looking at 1.1% 2017 now considering these developed countries above there is a global slowing, so context is key.
In terms of a downgrade there are many things to consider
- The global economy‚
- Economic deterioration
- Local financial or banking crisis
- Government policy
To rectify the above will require a fiscal effort, economic policy review etc etc
Let me say your opinion is warranted and the ANC has to rectify these issues and there are people who are competent to steer the ship but branches will have to make that decision. I do not support blindly and would never say the same of you whoever you vote for we all have our views and take on things. As you have your rusty sheriff badge I also have mine.
I was in car whilst typing earlier so I may have gotten mixed up with quotes etc, apologies for anyone I quoted incorrectly.
individj
Well-known member
As a person of colour i am thankful to the ANC & other political parties for the freedom i enjoy today..for men & women of integrity & strength who sacrificed everything for future generations without wanting any monetary reward... to see their people treated with dignity & respect..treated equally.
As an educated person..there is absolutely no way that i can justify the actions of the ANC today. I also cannot separate Jacob Zuma from the ANC as they have made a statement to support him & stand with him. They are actually worse than the apartheid government because so many people sacrificed everything to liberate us & they are doing this to their own people...we have old and young starving..going to bed hungry..crying..because of the ANC..they are corrupt & they are stealing from their own people to enrich themselves! It is as simple as that..if you don't recognise that they are corrupt & that they are raping the country & destroying the future for so many then you are ignorant..im sorry. That is of course my opinion...about being ignorant...the points about corruption is fact.
this is not a unique situation...it happens all the time..money can change people...shit i don't know what i would do if someone offered me a Billion to do something..the point is I'm not a political leader or public servant...they need to be held accountable & booted.
As an educated person..there is absolutely no way that i can justify the actions of the ANC today. I also cannot separate Jacob Zuma from the ANC as they have made a statement to support him & stand with him. They are actually worse than the apartheid government because so many people sacrificed everything to liberate us & they are doing this to their own people...we have old and young starving..going to bed hungry..crying..because of the ANC..they are corrupt & they are stealing from their own people to enrich themselves! It is as simple as that..if you don't recognise that they are corrupt & that they are raping the country & destroying the future for so many then you are ignorant..im sorry. That is of course my opinion...about being ignorant...the points about corruption is fact.
this is not a unique situation...it happens all the time..money can change people...shit i don't know what i would do if someone offered me a Billion to do something..the point is I'm not a political leader or public servant...they need to be held accountable & booted.
Nick
Honorary ///Member
WIDEOPN-X5
Well-known member
Your comments comparing economic growth rates refers;
Quote:
Population of Denmark (2017 and historical)
Year Population Yearly % Change
2016 5,690,750 0.38 %
2015 5,669,081 0.42 %
2010 5,550,959 0.49 %
2005 5,417,692 0.3 %
Population of Belgium
11,267,910
On 1 January 2016, the population of Belgium was 11,267,910. That number is fairly evenly distributed between the sexes, although women outnumber men by approximately 200,000. The population density is 363 people per km2 (2015), although the north of the country is much more densely populated than the south.
A statistical overview of the Belgian population | Belgium.be
https://www.belgium.be/en/about_belgium/country/Population
End quote.
I have not bothered with the US at 2.6% because in context of the size of that economy, 2.6% growth is sufficient to support the status quo.
With regard to SA, as you say we WERE looking at 1.1% growth however that is unlikely to be achieved now. However, that's not really the point I want to make. The Demark and Belgium comparison when one considers the population size and the unemployment rate, that is what is relevant.
Because of the low unemployment rates, there is conversely a larger (relative) tax base to sustain all the benefits that are bestowed on the citizens. We don't have that luxury. Also I doubt very much that the national debt to GDP ration of the countries quoted is in excess of 50%.
We need a growth rate of 5% and more just to break even. That is definitely not going to happen now as a DIRECT consequence of the actions of ONE MAN who has gone rogue. The organisation he heads has the ability to change that path but refuses to do. What is so baffling is that the refusal to make the changes that could stop the rot appears to be as a result of a mind set that "we won't be dictated to by the opposition".
So even though we know its the right thing to do we won't do it because (to paraphrase Gwede) "there's no army where the enemy dictates to the generals how to proceed".
The crux of the matter is that the fish rots from the head and the noble organisation that the ANC was under OR Tambo, Mandela etc is no longer that organisation.
How do you reconcile saying you idolize the former great leaders, some of whom are still alive and who are actively critising the current leadership, with then supporting (by inaction and verbal support) that current corrupt leadership?
I truly cannot understand that.
The former leaders who are still alive are appalled by what is going on, have been very outspoken about it, you idolize them as being great but you won't support them to effect change from within...... have I summed it up correctly?
I would like to be enlightened.
Quote:
Population of Denmark (2017 and historical)
Year Population Yearly % Change
2016 5,690,750 0.38 %
2015 5,669,081 0.42 %
2010 5,550,959 0.49 %
2005 5,417,692 0.3 %
Population of Belgium
11,267,910
On 1 January 2016, the population of Belgium was 11,267,910. That number is fairly evenly distributed between the sexes, although women outnumber men by approximately 200,000. The population density is 363 people per km2 (2015), although the north of the country is much more densely populated than the south.
A statistical overview of the Belgian population | Belgium.be
https://www.belgium.be/en/about_belgium/country/Population
End quote.
I have not bothered with the US at 2.6% because in context of the size of that economy, 2.6% growth is sufficient to support the status quo.
With regard to SA, as you say we WERE looking at 1.1% growth however that is unlikely to be achieved now. However, that's not really the point I want to make. The Demark and Belgium comparison when one considers the population size and the unemployment rate, that is what is relevant.
Because of the low unemployment rates, there is conversely a larger (relative) tax base to sustain all the benefits that are bestowed on the citizens. We don't have that luxury. Also I doubt very much that the national debt to GDP ration of the countries quoted is in excess of 50%.
We need a growth rate of 5% and more just to break even. That is definitely not going to happen now as a DIRECT consequence of the actions of ONE MAN who has gone rogue. The organisation he heads has the ability to change that path but refuses to do. What is so baffling is that the refusal to make the changes that could stop the rot appears to be as a result of a mind set that "we won't be dictated to by the opposition".
So even though we know its the right thing to do we won't do it because (to paraphrase Gwede) "there's no army where the enemy dictates to the generals how to proceed".
The crux of the matter is that the fish rots from the head and the noble organisation that the ANC was under OR Tambo, Mandela etc is no longer that organisation.
How do you reconcile saying you idolize the former great leaders, some of whom are still alive and who are actively critising the current leadership, with then supporting (by inaction and verbal support) that current corrupt leadership?
I truly cannot understand that.
The former leaders who are still alive are appalled by what is going on, have been very outspoken about it, you idolize them as being great but you won't support them to effect change from within...... have I summed it up correctly?
I would like to be enlightened.
Major
Active member
F21GP said:
Digging up graves here, but if you're going to use the "spew that is fed to you", in this case the Corruption Perception Index, please use it properly.
First off, it's a perception index, not a measured index. It relies on input from "expert assessments and opinion surveys". In their 2016 report (published in January), we ranked 64th out of 176 with a score of 45, which falls under the category "Mostly Corrupt", as it's less than 50.
They had this to say about Sub-Saharan Africa in that same report:
They (Transparency International) have a South African chapter, Corruption Watch, which has plenty news and views on corruption in this country. When TI released their 2016 report, they themselves had this to say:
The GCB is compiled by asking respondents whether they had paid a bribe in the last year. 83%. That speaks to a culture of corruption being acceptable by the majority, and why do you think that's the case? Because we have repeat instances of corruption being acceptable and perpetrated by lawmakers themselves.
If you disregard what they have to say as "media spew", then don't use their ranking to argue your point that the ANC "are far from the levels of corruption you are fed". Those measures and organisations say they are corrupt, and since 2011, have been getting worse.
VinnyJ
Member
http://city-press.news24.com/News/m...ady-soldiers-to-defend-luthuli-house-20170405
"The former liberation movement soldiers, led by Umkhonto weSizwe Military Veterans Association KwaZulu-Natal chairperson and provincial public safety ministry head Themba Mavundla, also threatened to take up arms should a Parliamentary vote of no confidence in Zuma be successful."
zuma and his clown vets are barbaric thugs!! this country is no longer a democracy, but a dictatorship head up by a limp d**k himself!!
"The former liberation movement soldiers, led by Umkhonto weSizwe Military Veterans Association KwaZulu-Natal chairperson and provincial public safety ministry head Themba Mavundla, also threatened to take up arms should a Parliamentary vote of no confidence in Zuma be successful."
zuma and his clown vets are barbaric thugs!! this country is no longer a democracy, but a dictatorship head up by a limp d**k himself!!
individj
Well-known member
the feesmustfall movement have exposed themselves with their statement about the planned marches
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-saunites-for-anti-zuma-protests-20170406
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-saunites-for-anti-zuma-protests-20170406
RAArmstrong
///Member
individj said:
This is hate speech as far as I'm concerned :RedNo:
But of course, we pass the buck. Lets blame all of today's 2017 problems on something that happened nearly 400 years ago! :facepalm:
RAArmstrong
///Member
individj said:
Yep! But sadly there's a popular opinion out there that only whites can be racist
RAArmstrong
///Member
Coisman@TheFanatics said:
And thats the way we should all aim to see it, but sadly thats not the case.
Nick
Honorary ///Member
this is quite funny.
http://www.thesouthafrican.com/read...cial&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1491471470
http://www.thesouthafrican.com/read...cial&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1491471470
PLV
Well-known member
I so longingly look forward to the day where we can all just get along without race being of any issue nor consequence. I love the fact that my coloured son and his white, coloured and black friends all play and get along equally well without any consideration for colour or creed, because they are brought up to not take that into account. This is certainly true of me and my friends, because we are South African, plain and simple - and colour has absolutely no bearing on who you are as a person, nor your morals, etc.
I fear that this being a broader reality across all age groups will be well past my time on this earth, and perhaps only a true reality for a future generation or two once our kids and their kids grow up - if even then?
It is really sad, and so unnecessary...
I fear that this being a broader reality across all age groups will be well past my time on this earth, and perhaps only a true reality for a future generation or two once our kids and their kids grow up - if even then?
It is really sad, and so unnecessary...
