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Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
Xcede vs JB4 on same car, same dyno
- Thread starter Sherwin@xcede
- Start date
UpNcOmiNg!
Events Organiser
I would come to jhb just for this....
boost3d
Honorary ///Member
Please note , these are only my own views ....since this discussion is about jb vs excede lets consider the following points
1) It is widely known that flashes are known to make more power then piggy backs in general
2) A piggyback has the advantage of not being reliant on a tuner to install/uninstall everytime the car needs to go in for a service etc
3) If at some point the buyer trades/sell's his car, they can offset the greater expense of the piggyback versus the flash by selling the unit off, this cannot be done with a flash
4) The jb has a multitude of built in safety devices, actually too many safety features but its for the car and owners protection
5) The jb includes both meth and nitrous integration which again offsets the cost of having to use external controllers/devices
6) At any point in time, there is both a local company and burgertuning abroad , that provides Free technical support with a quick turnaround time
7) The jb adapts and grows as you add additional mods , without needing to be re-calibrated or re-flashed to cater for new mods
8) The jb has multiple maps, all selectable from your steering wheel
9) The jb has both logging and diagnostic features
10) The ability to have a backend flash allows the individual to load any map at any given time, whether it be off the shelf generic back end flashes which Terry provides for free, or custom maps which you have to pay for
11) Any car that is modded has the possibility of being flagged as being modified...i feel safer knowing that a piggyback unit can be removed relatively easy and the original binfile of the car loaded back on the car from the comfort of your own home before sending a car in
So in conclusion, i am not arguing that you have a product that makes great power, but i think there is alot more to take into consideration before someone makes a choice on which product and path they choose.
1) It is widely known that flashes are known to make more power then piggy backs in general
2) A piggyback has the advantage of not being reliant on a tuner to install/uninstall everytime the car needs to go in for a service etc
3) If at some point the buyer trades/sell's his car, they can offset the greater expense of the piggyback versus the flash by selling the unit off, this cannot be done with a flash
4) The jb has a multitude of built in safety devices, actually too many safety features but its for the car and owners protection
5) The jb includes both meth and nitrous integration which again offsets the cost of having to use external controllers/devices
6) At any point in time, there is both a local company and burgertuning abroad , that provides Free technical support with a quick turnaround time
7) The jb adapts and grows as you add additional mods , without needing to be re-calibrated or re-flashed to cater for new mods
8) The jb has multiple maps, all selectable from your steering wheel
9) The jb has both logging and diagnostic features
10) The ability to have a backend flash allows the individual to load any map at any given time, whether it be off the shelf generic back end flashes which Terry provides for free, or custom maps which you have to pay for
11) Any car that is modded has the possibility of being flagged as being modified...i feel safer knowing that a piggyback unit can be removed relatively easy and the original binfile of the car loaded back on the car from the comfort of your own home before sending a car in
So in conclusion, i am not arguing that you have a product that makes great power, but i think there is alot more to take into consideration before someone makes a choice on which product and path they choose.
dvst8
///Member
German_spec said:
No argument on your points above. I dont think that is the purpose of this thread.
As mentioned earlier, Xcede is a JB agent, they will continue to offer all current options to clients based on requirements.
At no point did anyone say that JB is not a good product and should not be used.
What was said is that the Flash can provide more gains and that statement can be tested on a dyno.
:coolShake:
Acheron
Honorary ///Member
Sherwin@xcede said:
I never accused you in particular of shooting for just power. I recommended that the logs of both runs be made visible so that neither tune, Xcede or JB, can be accused of being unsafe regardless of which comes out on top. Like it or not one tune will go first, post a number and the next will follow. Regardless of which goes first there will be pressure for the 2nd to outdo the first.
dvst8 said:
10wkw is significant. Everybody would like an extra 10wkw. My point is that 10wkw is a lot less than the 35wkw/150nm difference Sherwin's original comparison has shown and is, in percentage terms, not enough to convincingly prove a flash tune superior (especially when you factor in the JB's other features).
As for the challenge unfortunately I'm 1000km too far away to offer my car up for the challenge otherwise I would gladly have done so.
As for the bet why would I place money on something that I have no vested interest in? I do not work for BMS and the best possible outcome is someone else gets a free tune? Alternatively I lose money because Sherwin's map posts a few more kw's. Remember I've never stated that the JB+backend will make more power...just that if configured correctly (with the appropriate backend) will be close enough to the Xcede map to prove that what Sherwin is alluding too (Xcede uber JB) is not quite cut and dry.
dvst8 said:
Sherwin invited the comparison as he chose to, instead of simply posting figures, frame it as how much more power his tune can make. I've never accused him of being anti-JB4.
Myself, and others, have simply said that with the addition of the backend flash (the latest and greatest addition to N54 tuning) that gap will be closed substantially.
Magneto
New member
I don't know who is right or wrong, and I don't really care about the results as I feel there is so much more to choosing a tune than just dyno power readings.
I don't know anyone involved in this discussion but I do believe that Acheron has kept his composure and he comes across as very intelligent and level-headed. If I were to tune my car, this is the person whose advice I would take.
This is not to say that others do not know their stuff, but perception is very important. When one starts getting emotional and expletives start, respect is lost. Trying too hard is not good. A simple case where less is more.
Well done to Neesh for stepping up. I can vouch for his manual DCT hands. I have experienced those gear changes. Didn't know my car could do that, lol.
I don't know anyone involved in this discussion but I do believe that Acheron has kept his composure and he comes across as very intelligent and level-headed. If I were to tune my car, this is the person whose advice I would take.
This is not to say that others do not know their stuff, but perception is very important. When one starts getting emotional and expletives start, respect is lost. Trying too hard is not good. A simple case where less is more.
Well done to Neesh for stepping up. I can vouch for his manual DCT hands. I have experienced those gear changes. Didn't know my car could do that, lol.
$nivz330d$
New member
shiks come i back-end flash you and see how much power you make on the dyno lol :tiptoe::tiptoe::YesNo:
Acheron said:
Acheron, a few pages have passed and we still missing each other on this. This thread references dyno power on an N54 with downpipes. A back end flash will not yield any more power and hence will not close the gap for this specific mod.
Dean ///M said:
N54 on street tyres with only mod being downpipes. At Tarlton.
Jesus is a famous Mitsubishi tuner from Denver Colorado.
Common sense would dictate that one would use a back end flash in situations where the piggyback doesn't have the control for the solution required.
Big turbo's or NOS, for example would require a total reshape of the advance curve. Phasing a few degrees with CPS offsetting just won't cut it.
Also there are some limitations on the fuelling & specifically the fuel trims by biasing the widebands. So if you tuning for E85 or any other custom alcohol fuels, then a back end would offer more control.
VANOS, speed limiters, turning off nannies, throttle maps a whole host of other reasons. But to answer your question, custom fuelling, timing and reprofiles boost curves is where you would need a back end. It wouldn't make much of a difference for a car with downpipes only.
Who's talking about E85? Who runs E85 here? I'm talking a back end flash for DP's. And yes I'm saying it won't make a difference for a car with only DP's.
Acheron said:
Common sense would dictate that one would use a back end flash in situations where the piggyback doesn't have the control for the solution required.
Big turbo's or NOS, for example would require a total reshape of the advance curve. Phasing a few degrees with CPS offsetting just won't cut it.
Also there are some limitations on the fuelling & specifically the fuel trims by biasing the widebands. So if you tuning for E85 or any other custom alcohol fuels, then a back end would offer more control.
VANOS, speed limiters, turning off nannies, throttle maps a whole host of other reasons. But to answer your question, custom fuelling, timing and reprofiles boost curves is where you would need a back end. It wouldn't make much of a difference for a car with downpipes only.
hoosain said:
Who's talking about E85? Who runs E85 here? I'm talking a back end flash for DP's. And yes I'm saying it won't make a difference for a car with only DP's.
Dean ///M
Limited Profile
No time to read all of this but without any flash no meth and with Nf on Map5 335i, N54 made 300wkw's on Stealths dyno. As far as I have read Terry did do a dyno run on a stock car pump fuel with his flash and it made 291wkw's that was almost a year ago. Results are on N54 Tech. And Terry is not the only person who does the back end flashes there are more potent one's. Last FBO N54 with back end, States made close to 360wkw's, stock snails.
Straight from the horses mouth: DOn't see the fight in Hp, track time talks.
From Terry:
11-26-2014, 10:07 PM
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They are running 23psi+ in the midrange, an overly aggressive timing curve, and testing in 5th gear with cold weather. It's not rocket science. We did 481rw stock turbo last year at 21psi. Realistically though stock turbo maps more than 450whp don't perform well at the track. We did 123-125mph stock turbo running a 440whp map. Higher powered maps resulted in the same or less MPH.
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27939
Straight from the horses mouth: DOn't see the fight in Hp, track time talks.
From Terry:
11-26-2014, 10:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are running 23psi+ in the midrange, an overly aggressive timing curve, and testing in 5th gear with cold weather. It's not rocket science. We did 481rw stock turbo last year at 21psi. Realistically though stock turbo maps more than 450whp don't perform well at the track. We did 123-125mph stock turbo running a 440whp map. Higher powered maps resulted in the same or less MPH.
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27939
DieselFan
Honorary ///Member
I asked this in one of the other threads and didn't get an answer. What exactly is an altitude tune? Would the car run lean when at the coast due to the extra air? Or are there other maps within the ecu to compensate for the extra airflow? If so is it not then just a good map? Where does the altitude part come into play or is that just the marketing you're going for?
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