Xcede vs JB4 on same car, same dyno

[Sherwin@xcede]

No buddy, that's the beauty of exit speed. All monkeys will run the same. especially in an auto. The point isn't your driving skills, I saw the on-board videos. It was sufficient to lay down the exit speed.

Tom ran a 12.4 @ 187 up here this week-end in terrible conditions. He has much less mods than you. But judging by the exits makes similar power to you. Don't make assumptions about sea-level dyno's vs altitude ones. Your 323kw is no more than 290kw up here. That's a fact.

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Here's the results, best time done on street tyres:

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

I am sure the JB4 can hit those figures with some tweaking but the question is, would it be reliable? One or two dynos doesn't convince me of long term power + reliability.

A proper flash is more reliable than a piggyback stacking boost on top of the stock timing curve. The JB doesn not have direct control of ignition timing. It relies on the DME to pull timing reactively after it adds boost.

So a JB can't hit those figures & in addition to that it can't do it reliably.

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Hence why the accompanying JB backend flash was suggested for comparison rather than just the piggyback targeting higher boost levels.

So you want to compare a JB + flash to a flash. I Want to compare it just to the JB as all the car has is downpipes. We don't need anything additional to tune, just the flash.

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Sherwin, guys are loading custom backend flashes and using JB4 functionality. Is it not possible to combine the best of both worlds and load an Xcede backend flash whilst maintaining the JB4 functionality?

I suppose you could, not sure if you would get limps with both tunes adding boost. Have to try it & see.

 

[Dean ///M]

My attempt with customers car, 135i Auto only with JB and on street tyres you can see the 60ft & how I battled with traction.
2014/04/27 11:24 Left 6B18, DEAN MARIMUTHU 12.983 176.03 0.174 NO 2.124
2014/04/27 14:43 Left 6B18, DEAN MARIMUTHU 12.781 184.62 2.373 NO 2.252
2014/04/27 14:02 Right 6B18, DEAN MARIMUTHU 13.3 182.77 1.841 NO 2.335
2014/04/27 09:59 Right 6B18, DEAN MARIMUTHU 13.387 177.14 0.575 NO 2.392

With Hoosiers I say it could run 12,2 -12.3 but the above is the best I ran with JB only, non-iso.

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Zain's car way back in 2013. Stock Turbo's it ran 12.8x with RB's at the time. 135i Auto.
I spent 2 weeks with this car. This is the record to beat at Sea Level.

13/04/2013 12:36:06 PM Left Lane 6B03, B ZAREEF BASHA 17.515 62.56 0.670 NO
13/04/2013 09:14:01 AM Left Lane 6B03, B ZAREEF BASHA 15.431 73.04 1.377 NO
13/04/2013 09:24:39 AM Left Lane 6B03, B ZAREEF BASHA 12.055 192.70 2.909 NO
13/04/2013 12:07:28 PM Left Lane 6B03, B ZAREEF BASHA 12.098 193.32 0.618 NO
13/04/2013 10:39:13 AM Left Lane 6B03, B ZAREEF BASHA 11.814 194.14 0.479 NO13/04/2013
09:16:27 AM Left Lane 6B03, B ZAREEF BASHA 12.047 195.38 1.130 NO

Guys I'm not getting into politics here just posting some factual data here. These times run at MSA approved events.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Ok deal. 194 exit to beat the record. I have already run 191 at altitude with basic mods. It will be done, but probably need to run at sea level to beat those times. Challenge accepted

 

[Dean ///M]

This is ThamZ car when he first raced it with only Dp's, DCi, secondary cats still in place, JB no other mods and best part being Manual. Full car he always runs full trim, 335i Coupe.

05/05/2013 11:08:11 AM Left La6B80, THAMASHEN MOODLEY 12.634 180.51 0.475 NO
05/05/2013 12:20:29 PM Left La6B80, THAMASHEN MOODLEY 12.182 186.08 0.703 NO
05/05/2013 01:53:55 PM Left La6B80, THAMASHEN MOODLEY 13.420 183.05 0.589 NO
Way back 2013.

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With cooler on & meth at Margate still the secondary cats on the car, still full weight. I believe this is 6MT Record in SA.

16/06/2013 10:16:06 AM 6B20, A THAMASHEN MOODLEY 12.347 185.37 1.674 NO
16/06/2013 01:14:15 PM 6B20, A THAMASHEN MOODLEY 12.092 185.42 0.699 NO16/06/2013 11:50:23 AM 6B20, A THAMASHEN MOODLEY 12.180 188.53 3.415 NO
16/06/2013 02:11:52 PM 6B20, A THAMASHEN MOODLEY 12.307 189.46 2.526 NO

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This is JP's 135i 6MT without meth, very good exit. Not sure if we can always guage power when comparing it to speed especially in 6MT cos although we have RB's on now it exits at the similar speed but this 135i will leave you for dead beyond the 400m maybe we need to get it to Jhb for a 1km run.
16/06/2013 02:19:06 PM 6C15, JON OTTE 13.408 184.06 0.496 NO
16/06/2013 11:38:27 AM 6C15, JON OTTE 12.583 187.80 0.749 NO
16/06/2013 01:01:51 PM 6C15, JON OTTE 12.750 189.50 1.036 NO

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Hey Sherwin you see why we make them fast, we don't sleep, Lol.

 

[Chavoos]

I am sure the JB4 can hit those figures with some tweaking but the question is, would it be reliable? One or two dynos doesn't convince me of long term power + reliability.

A proper flash is more reliable than a piggyback stacking boost on top of the stock timing curve. The JB doesn not have direct control of ignition timing. It relies on the DME to pull timing reactively after it adds boost.

So a JB can't hit those figures & in addition to that it can't do it reliably.

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Hence why the accompanying JB backend flash was suggested for comparison rather than just the piggyback targeting higher boost levels.

So you want to compare a JB + flash to a flash. I Want to compare it just to the JB as all the car has is downpipes. We don't need anything additional to tune, just the flash.

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Sherwin, guys are loading custom backend flashes and using JB4 functionality. Is it not possible to combine the best of both worlds and load an Xcede backend flash whilst maintaining the JB4 functionality?

I suppose you could, not sure if you would get limps with both tunes adding boost. Have to try it & see.

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You could start with Terry's race map.
And change to Himalaya for JB4. I don't mind being the guinea pig. Let's try

Terry's words below:
"Just as an update we have developed a backend flash map for use with the JB4 for those of you running larger turbos or nitrous. The setup has been well proven across many RB turbo installs now and allows proper fueling in the 500whp+ range these turbos put out. In addition there are quite a few other advantages specifically VANOS remapping, ignition advance remapping, etc, that make the BMS flash a must have for anyone wanting to push big power levels.

A few comments on the changes:

1) We've shifted the fuel control, including open loop adjustment, over to the flash side. This means improved AFR targeting at high boost levels and a higher fuel trim ceiling without the need for open loop adjustment. This change sets the JB4 up to accommodate power levels up to the 600rw level and beyond.

2) We've remapped advance out on the flash side producing an overall cleaner and more predicable result than CPS offsetting can. This also allows increased timing advance during those conditions where it makes sense.

3) Many other changes have been made including VANOS changes, fuel scaling, spool up logic changes, flatline fix, etc. And as we make addl flash map changes you can download those changes or remove the flash completely without leaving your driveway.

4) These changes will allow the JB4 to focus on what it does best for higher HP cars. Boost control, CANbus integration, meth integration, safety features, etc.

5) Note you probably need to be making 425whp or more to benefit from the BMS back end flash.





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[S1NGH 911]

33wkw variance on a N54 due to altitude, that's way off.......

Really now Sherwin that's guestimating.......

Guess we shall wait for a Durban N54 to get onto the rollers at KAR......


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[Sherwin@xcede]

Singh, you don't have to wait for anything. I have run 4 N54s at KAR and Stars. They all ran 10% lower at KAR. How do you know that's way off? Are you an altitude tuner ?

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33wkw variance on a N54 due to altitude, that's way off.......

Really now Sherwin that's guestimating.......

Guess we shall wait for a Durban N54 to get onto the rollers at KAR......


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Singh, Kish exited 187 with 323kw. Tom exited 187 with 289kw up here. KIsh is making maximum 290kw up here. Is that hard to understand? Tell me you comprehend exit speeds?

 

[S1NGH 911]

There's several variables that can influence the exit speed, do you comprehend that?


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[Sherwin@xcede]

Dean thank you for all the times & exits. Those exits will be beaten by the new map. We actually have exited 191 at altitude with no meth, no full exhaust, no charge pipe, not even eth. Thats around 195 exit at sea-level. I wouldn't be surprised if I Can get an FBO car to exit 200 at Matuba with the new map. But the proof is in the pudding & I will ensure I get multiple cars down to sea-level in 2015.

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There's several variables that can influence the exit speed, do you comprehend that?


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Like what? Please don't come with conspiracy theories.

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You know nothing about altitude vs sea-level, don't pretend you do. The difference is 10%. And it's not because I say so. It's a fact. Denver Colorado is the same altitude as Johannesburg & they also have empirical data of 10% loss. Many cars have dyno'd all over the world for decades at sea-level vs altitude & it's a simple fact.

 

[Kish2604]

Singh, you don't have to wait for anything. I have run 4 N54s at KAR and Stars. They all ran 10% lower at KAR. How do you know that's way off? Are you an altitude tuner ?

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33wkw variance on a N54 due to altitude, that's way off.......

Really now Sherwin that's guestimating.......

Guess we shall wait for a Durban N54 to get onto the rollers at KAR......


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Singh, Kish exited 187 with 323kw. Tom exited 187 with 289kw up here. KIsh is making maximum 290kw up here. Is that hard to understand? Tell me you comprehend exit speeds?

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And likewise at the same event JP Otte exited at 189kmh with 400+kW... Where is the correlation between dyno power and exit speeds?

Also it seems that 400m racing is now about the highest exit speed and not about the time! What were we thinking all along?

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

You could start with Terry's race map.
And change to Himalaya for JB4. I don't mind being the guinea pig. Let's try

Ok what's the most power you made at KAR and do you have back end flash?

 

[S1NGH 911]

Ok Sherwin, yes I too like Kish no absolutely nothing....

I'm as dumb as they come and your Sir are a genius.....

Hey I'm just a noob here, that's why there's tuners like you, who have the required intellect.....

As you said the proof is in the Pudding........ And as we know too many chefs spoil the broth.....

Your cars make damn good power and put down rocking times as well......

But you're the one with conspiracy theories not me :thumbs:


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[Chavoos]

Yes I do . Most the car made so far is 260wkw and 605Nm . That's before I put on the Downpipes.


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[ChefDJ]

..... And as we know too many chefs spoil the broth.....

Hey, don't involve me :roflol:

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Terry's words below:
"Just as an update we have developed a backend flash map for use with the JB4 for those of you running larger turbos or nitrous.

That's the answer I was looking for. It' doesn't say for cars with downpipes.

1) We've shifted the fuel control, including open loop adjustment, over to the flash side. This means improved AFR targeting at high boost levels and a higher fuel trim ceiling without the need for open loop adjustment. This change sets the JB4 up to accommodate power levels up to the 600rw level and beyond.

That's right, you need a flash to control fuelling properly as opposed to biasing the widebands & trying to get the DME to get the fuelling in the ballpark you need.

2) We've remapped advance out on the flash side producing an overall cleaner and more predicable result than CPS offsetting can. This also allows increased timing advance during those conditions where it makes sense.

Absolutely, full control of ignition timing, at any point in the rev range, under any load, pre spool, during spool, post spool, basically anytime anywhere, pro-active full control of timing. That' why you need a flash.

3) Many other changes have been made including VANOS changes, fuel scaling, spool up logic changes, flatline fix, etc.

That's right. No piggyback can control VANOS at the moment. I can get the turbo's to spool slightly earlier, hold more midrange & even peak slightly later by tuning the VANOS. Need a flash for that unfortunately. In addition to controlling the throttle maps as well.

5) Note you probably need to be making 425whp or more to benefit from the BMS back end flash.

Yeah so a car with just downpipe doesn't need a back end flash, straight from the horses mouth.

So can we drop the sour grapes from the uninformed that this isn't a fair comparison as the JB car needs a back end flash for DP's? Seriously?

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Ok Sherwin, yes I too like Kish no absolutely nothing....

I'm as dumb as they come and your Sir are a genius.....

Hey I'm just a noob here, that's why there's tuners like you, who have the required intellect.....

As you said the proof is in the Pudding........ And as we know too many chefs spoil the broth.....

Your cars make damn good power and put down rocking times as well......

But you're the one with conspiracy theories not me :thumbs:


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No I'm not saying you know nothing. You may well be a Bollywood Einstein. But generally people living at sea-level wouldn't know the actual power loss at altitude. And rightly so, it makes no difference to them. I wouldn't know the power loss in the atmosphere at Mars & I wouldn't care either.

 

[Acheron]

I'm not sure where Chavoos has got his info from regarding the backend flash, but it can be used and be of benefit to anyone using a JB4, regardless of their current state of modification. Hence why it is available in pump, race and E85 flavours. Run the pump flash with just the JB (no downpipes required) and the result is immediately noticeable.

The fact is that the backend flash is freely available to anyone who wants to use it. It cannot be seen as an additional modification as anyone with an N54 not running it in conjunction with a JB4 is simply ignoring the next step in the JB system's evolution, i.e. that once was a piggyback system is now available as a stacking system over a base backend tune (selected according to fuel used).

P.S. You picked out my suggestion to use the backend, but still did not answer my question about the fuels being used in each dyno.

P.P.S The tone of your thread comes across as anti-JB in the very first sentence. Had you simply posted results without any reference to "how much better my tunes are than a JB" you would have met far less conflict here.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Yes I do . Most the car made so far is 260wkw and 605Nm . That's before I put on the Downpipes.


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Ok let's get another baseline & show the maximum possible hp with JB at KAR for your vehicle. If needed please contact Kish or Dean or maybe even Jesus to ensure you have all the correct settings firmware etc. Run the best fuel, eth whatever you want and let's get a figure for the max hp you can get with JB + back end flash.

Then we shall start & document the next part of the journey. Deal?

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I'm not sure where Chavoos has got his info from regarding the backend flash,

He got it from Terry. The guy who makes the JB. He even quoted Terry.

but it can be used and be of benefit to anyone using a JB4, regardless of their current state of modification. Hence why it is available in pump, race and E85 flavours. Run the pump flash with just the JB (no downpipes required) and the result is immediately noticeable.

Ok then why do you need the JB. Just run the back end flash & add some boost using it.
Do you have a dyno for a car with just DP's proving it makes more power with back end flash?

but still did not answer my question about the fuels being used in each dyno.

I used 40% eth for the runs I ran the car with. With JB & with the flash & even the stock map runs had that fuel as the car was flashed on the rollers.

When the customer ran it at ALB he had NF.

 

[Acheron]

Chavoos' Terry quote refers to one specific version of the backend flash (as I mentioned above there are multiple flavours), i.e. the backend for big turbo application. You've singled out one section of a quote already taken out of context and run with it. I'll say it again: There are many backend flash versions available, for various applications in conjunction with the JB4.

As for your question about why you need the JB post-flash that's already been answered. It is still stacking boost according to fuel quality, meth control, etc when timing control has been optimized on the flash side. Yes you can dial in more boost on the flash side as well, but with JB doing that for you automatically according to fuel quality the user does not need a tuner to write them multiple maps and go through the effort of switching between them when running different fuels. e.g. If I choose to run the pump flash with NF on a full tank or on half a tank the JB will select the appropriate boost for me. Of course I also have the option of switching to one of the other free backend flashes should I choose to run some significantly better fuels, e.g. E85 blends, but that is my choice as to whether I need the further optimization that map provides.

Note, I'm not anti standalone flash, but to say that they are capable of giving significantly better results than the JB post-backend flash availability is simply not true. The fact is that those running these backend flashes have consistently seen improvement in power/driveability and as I've stated multiple times they are freely available to those wanting to use them.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Note, I'm not anti standalone flash, but to say that they are capable of giving significantly better results than the JB post-backend flash availability is simply not true. The fact is that those running these backend flashes have consistently seen improvement in power/driveability and as I've stated multiple times they are freely available to those wanting to use them.

Ok Terry quoted directly that you don't need a back end flash if you making less than 420hp.

As a tuner and with experience with the JB, I am saying (my opinion & Terry seems to confirm it) that you don't require a back end flash for a car with just a downpipe. The functionality that the back end flash provides that the JB cannot is not required in this case. The JB can adequately provide what is required on that front.

Of course you can disagree and say the drivability/safety or whatever else if better with the flash, and you would be right. Those are the benefits of having a flash tune control those parameters. In terms of outright power for a car with downpipes I know for a fact that the back end won't make a difference.

But I have a challenge & I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. Supply car with DP's and back end flash and let's take it to the dyno.