Trade up/in considerations

[TBP88]

Hi guys

As you know I've had a Z4M coupe for around 3years now. A car that always puts a smile on my face. My car is not a perfect example but mechanically it's very sorted and it still gives the sort of grunt and pleasure you'd expect from a 250kw 2 door sportscar.

However with Prime being around 3% lower than it was a year back and my income being safe from coronavirus inflicted harms I do see myself starting to consider something new. I'm not even remotely sure what I'd like, and realistically knowing me I'll take 12-18 months before even starting to look properly, but the below list are some cars I really like that I think should be affordable, assuming I can finance a portion of it (the Z4M is unencumbered by debt).

1. 996 Porsche C4S/Turbo - A C4S is a sub 500k car, and a decent turbo is around 700k. I reckon in this market sellers should be more motivated so perhaps I can knock a few thousand more off. To be honest this - https://www.gumtree.co.za/a-cars-ba...era-4s-+-996-manual/1007121797180910273127709 looks glorious, and at R400k leaves me some room to sort out IMS etc, the turbo has no IMS issues so it's a get in and go thing.
2. 997 gen 2 carrera 2s - This would be the dream (if I could find a manual!) probably similar money to a 996 turbo, maybe a bit more. But what a car.
3. Brand new M2 - a new M2 is around the R1m mark, so I'd be financing a *much* bigger chunk and losing more to depreciation, but I'd have motorplan for 5yrs (and the option to extend) and a brand new car optioned exactly as I'd like it. Also in real world terms an M2 would be *much* faster than the above cars. Bit soul-less and of course a new BMW can never match the punch and brand panache of a porsche.
4. Don't be a fucking idiot, save your money, keep the Z4M, it's all the car you could ever want.

This is a funny one, because when I'm at home browsing gumtree I see cars and want to change so badly and spending 100s of thousands to do so.

But when I do take my car for a drive (i usually try to take a 10-15km drive every 4 days or so) I start to think "do I need any more car than this".

I'm sure some of you have similar "issues" (those inverted commas are doing a lot of work there) at various price points and for various cars. How are you guys feeling for a change?

Cheers!

T

 

[M135i]

M2 if you can without a doubt

 

[UpNcOmiNg!]

Porsche and nothing else!

This is also HIGHLY dependent on the use of the car as well.

I would probably go for the manual 996 Turbo. They are such versatile cars with the better of the engine options from the 996 and early 997 variants.

Your Porsche's will appreciate with the 996 variants on the cusp of this below the usual special editions like the GT3/RS/GT2 etc etc.
My vote would be for the 996 Turbo or otherwise a RWD 997.2

 

[KPM3_30]

Interesting thread.. I've been having the same thoughts given the current circumstances we find ourselves in, horses for courses...

I have wanted an M car for the longest time, I could never justify it and so did other things to keep my thrill seeking at bay. This entire COVID pandemic has just shown me, in no uncertain terms, that life is unpredictable and we never know what the future holds. With this in mind, I believe, if you can comfortably afford a change in car without jeopardizing your financial and future security, why not..?

That being said, I take my 30i for a drive once a week and 90% of the time, it is more than adequate. Does a 10% shortfall necessitate changing my car and putting me into debt, I hardly think so but I still find myself browsing incessantly. The desire for 'up-trading' will always be there, but its a culmination of many more factors that need to be weighed up before a decision can be made..

There are many seasoned fanatics that would possibly steer you toward saving your cash or investing off-shore, or, or, or.. Whilst I have no doubt that this is sage advice, often from the perspective of bitter experience, no one can make you want to do anything.. The inherent desire needs to come from within, and if in this case it is wanting a dream car, there is no advice you can receive that would make you think any differently, at least in my case..

I think the most important message that plays at the back of my mind is, "live within your means".. If affording a Rxxk car is only possible due to a low interest rate and/or current economic climate, then this is a falsified sense of security and will invariably come back to bite you when the market does eventually turn around. For me, its a fine balance between head and heart, following either with a totalitarian outlook would leave you feeling unsatisfied.

@"TurboLlew" should have some solid views on the subject matter.

 

[MR_Y]

Well, I found a 996 C4S manual for you: https://finder.porsche.com/za/en_ZA/911-Carrera-4-S-Coup-133817.
R625k price is above your budget, but the IMS issues, etc. should have been sorted out since it is an Approved Porsche car.
Also, worth haggling for the Porsche Classic Warranty.

An M2, while a great car, will not retain its value in 20 years time as well as a 911 (of any age).

On the other hand, just keep your Z4M - it is a a free car- and keep your eyes open for repossessed Porsches that would hit the market in the next few months.
Yes, a very "ambulance chaser" thing to say, but you will end up saving not only your cash but helping an indebted person survive.

 

[TBP88]

All interesting points. I suppose it is a heart vs head thing - again I'm not hunting right now. Probably a 12-18 month process for me to narrow down. But it is interesting to think and wonder.

My gut does say that we are going to see this segment (the R1mish level sportscar) completely implode. A vast number of these cars are financed on deals that are only workable if guys have their 2nd/3rd incomes flowing in. When their small businesses fail they'll be over their heads and forced to offload.

Ambulance chaser-ish or not, I think it is going to be a buyers market for the forseeable future.

I'm extremely interested to see what this does to new car prices - a cayman 4.0 GTS is around R1.3m unoptioned (without being a fool you can spend R150k on options...) I really struggle to see porsche shifting a lot of those vehicles in our market...

 

[MR_Y]

I'm extremely interested to see what this does to new car prices - a cayman 4.0 GTS is around R1.3m unoptioned (without being a fool you can spend R150k on options...) I really struggle to see porsche shifting a lot of those vehicles in our market...

The current Cayman GTS is set up to be more 'affordable' than the full fat GT4 - same motor, GTS slightly detuned with less sporty bits.
Given that the 718 has been a disappointment compared to the 981 (since the 4-cylinder turbos were an aural downgrade from the old 6 cylinders), I expect the GTS and GT4 to hold their values quite well. The GTS being the better DD and the GT4 being the better track warrior.

Resale values will be kept afloat by Porsche South Africa who will use their monopoly in the used market to prop up used prices.

 

[individj]

i would buy the 996 turbo and treasure it. Its special.

 

[Zero14]

My 2cents

If you do finance, fix the rate to take advantage of the current low rates, this rate isn't going to stay here forever, the rates will increase in the upward cycle of the economy. As for getting the dream car, if you're a car guy you know that's an itch that can only be scratched by getting the car. I'm in the finance field but when it comes to cars all logical And rational finance decision making goes straight out the window. That said, there's always ways you can be smart about it

 

[TBP88]

I'm extremely interested to see what this does to new car prices - a cayman 4.0 GTS is around R1.3m unoptioned (without being a fool you can spend R150k on options...) I really struggle to see porsche shifting a lot of those vehicles in our market...

The current Cayman GTS is set up to be more 'affordable' than the full fat GT4 - same motor, GTS slightly detuned with less sporty bits.
Given that the 718 has been a disappointment compared to the 981 (since the 4-cylinder turbos were an aural downgrade from the old 6 cylinders), I expect the GTS and GT4 to hold their values quite well. The GTS being the better DD and the GT4 being the better track warrior.

Resale values will be kept afloat by Porsche South Africa who will use their monopoly in the used market to prop up used prices.

Agreed on porsche trying to keep the 2nd hand market propped up. But at the end of the day I think these cars will end up much like 997.2 cars after the 08 crash. Go and search for a good manual 997.2 of any kind, let alone a manual, nicely spec'd C2S. Hens teeth.

I'm curious as to what this does for porsche bottom line though. They do still need to shift numbers no? And if there is one manufacturer that can afford to cut prices it's porsche, their markups on a /car basis are huge...

 

[TurboLlew]

A few great points above

I had posted something about the Supra - I see that it is now even lower with demo cars at R599K. Interest rates are attractive, but don't make rash decisions if you are on the border of affordability. Only you will know this for yourself. There will be MANY good deals yet to come by end of the year. I mentioned a few times I was house shopping. This past week agents have kept sending updates... one place (1900 square metres of land and 450 square metres under roof) dropped from 4.6M to 3.8M pre-COVID and junk. It is now available for 3.2 and they are taking offers... I was told by my agent she recommends rather advertising my current place as a rental (I wish the sale had gone through).

I don't think it is an ambulance chaser approach to take advantage of market conditions. Remember people knew the risks they were taking with balloons, being on the edge of affordability for cars and houses, wanting to 'do rich people things' like leasing and not owning anything, pretending that they were 'doing better things' with their money saved from these activities etc. When you're buying everything in your life as a service and suddenly your income disappears AND you have limited savings AND you also don't have anything you own you suddenly realise where you REALLY are in life. A car you own is always going to be better than one you're paying for regardless of what the dealer or the bank will tell you.

Don't think you are going to get a new M2 exactly as you want. If BMW was able to do this, then I would probably have gotten one way before I even drove the 4C or had time to think about it too much... and all I really wanted was the better brakes. Apart from colour, it is what it is. They even told me if I ordered the car and ticked the box it would arrive without the brakes (ABM, JSN, Zambesi). That was also annoying for me because when I think about buying a new car over R1M, I really don't want to be told I am lucky to take what is on the floor. I am glad I didn't spend R1.1M on an M2 nearly a year a go. Ask owners just how bad the depreciation has been.

You won't go wrong with Porsche in terms of retaining value. Porsche and Daytona Group control the prices of their brands religiously. It is why McLaren is a disaster everywhere else in the world including the UK in terms of support/service/resale yet here in SA owners (somewhat unusually) have a better experience. 911s are special cars in many ways (Particularly in C4S, Turbo and GTx forms). The GT4 is probably the one out of the Cayman's I would take. A big attraction to me for Porsche is their 'approved' track events as well as the fact that (obviously at a predictable cost) you can extend the plan to 15 years and 200000km. I would gladly pay the R30K knowing if my Porsche needed a new motor, or transmission or carbon ceramics etc it would get them new from the factory fitted by Porsche with no questions asked even in year 10 of ownership. This is why my next car will almost certainly be a GT3 RS.

I would just caution against being too sure that your job is safe from COVID because you've survived in the short term. The ripples will be felt for years and worse is yet to come.

Also please drive these cars for yourself and try to avoid watching youtube and reading too much. I found all these cars very different to what reviews actually claimed and also reviewers tend to look for a car that does well at everything (albeit clinically). You might have specific things or aspects of the character of each that will be more to your taste. It doesn't matter if you like a car that Chris Harris doesn't or that everyone else can't understand - as long as it does what YOU want it to do that is what counts.

 

[nish_M240i]

If it were my decision M2 comp ftw bro, but if you want to save money, then be like me and get an M240i, absolutely amazing cars and they also really good value for money. But I'll admit, a porsche might not be such a bad idea, absolutely brilliant cars and just as @"TurboLlew" mentioned in the above comment, they retain value quite well, much better than the M2. Also another suggestion I'd like to add is the Audi TTS or TTRS considering you moving out of your Z4 M which also has 2 seats. Also really good cars even though they don't hold value like the porsche, but the AWD Quattro system is brilliant no lies.






Current : '19 BMW M240i F22 Lci Coupe
Ex : '13 BMW 320i F30 M Sport

 

[TBP88]

A few great points above

I had posted something about the Supra - I see that it is now even lower with demo cars at R599K. Interest rates are attractive, but don't make rash decisions if you are on the border of affordability. Only you will know this for yourself. There will be MANY good deals yet to come by end of the year. I mentioned a few times I was house shopping. This past week agents have kept sending updates... one place (1900 square metres of land and 450 square metres under roof) dropped from 4.6M to 3.8M pre-COVID and junk. It is now available for 3.2 and they are taking offers...  I was told by my agent she recommends rather advertising my current place as a rental (I wish the sale had gone through).

I don't think it is an ambulance chaser approach to take advantage of market conditions. Remember people knew the risks they were taking with balloons, being on the edge of affordability for cars and houses, wanting to 'do rich people things' like leasing and not owning anything, pretending that they were 'doing better things' with their money saved from these activities etc. When you're buying everything in your life as a service and suddenly your income disappears AND you have limited savings AND you also don't have anything you own you suddenly realise where you REALLY are in life. A car you own is always going to be better than one you're paying for regardless of what the dealer or the bank will tell you.

Don't think you are going to get a new M2 exactly as you want. If BMW was able to do this, then I would probably have gotten one way before I even drove the 4C or had time to think about it too much... and all I really wanted was the better brakes. Apart from colour, it is what it is. They even told me if I ordered the car and ticked the box it would arrive without the brakes (ABM, JSN, Zambesi). That was also annoying for me because when I think about buying a new car over R1M, I really don't want to be told I am lucky to take what is on the floor. I am glad I didn't spend R1.1M on an M2 nearly a year a go. Ask owners just how bad the depreciation has been.

You won't go wrong with Porsche in terms of retaining value. Porsche and Daytona Group control the prices of their brands religiously. It is why McLaren is a disaster everywhere else in the world including the UK in terms of support/service/resale yet here in SA owners (somewhat unusually) have a better experience. 911s are special cars in many ways (Particularly in C4S, Turbo and GTx forms). The GT4 is probably the one out of the Cayman's I would take. A big attraction to me for Porsche is their 'approved' track events as well as the fact that (obviously at a predictable cost) you can extend the plan to 15 years and 200000km. I would gladly pay the R30K knowing if my Porsche needed a new motor, or transmission or carbon ceramics etc it would get them new from the factory fitted by Porsche with no questions asked even in year 10 of ownership. This is why my next car will almost certainly be a GT3 RS.

I would just caution against being too sure that your job is safe from COVID because you've survived in the short term. The ripples will be felt for years and worse is yet to come.

Also please drive these cars for yourself and try to avoid watching youtube and reading too much. I found all these cars very different to what reviews actually claimed and also reviewers tend to look for a car that does well at everything (albeit clinically). You might have specific things or aspects of the character of each that will be more to your taste. It doesn't matter if you like a car that Chris Harris doesn't or that everyone else can't understand - as long as it does what YOU want it to do that is what counts.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident I'm covid safe job wise. And working in finance I have a pretty good grip on what is/isn't affordable. Also happy I didn't take any big financial decisions in the past year or so.

I think international trends will hit us more in the coming months. One likely outcome of Cvirus is that we'll see economies open up more - I think that as the big manufacturers close their local plants as global demand for (say) C classes dries up, their ability to pressure government to keep the protectionist rules around imports will also decrease - will be interesting to watch in the (admittedly) longer term.

Ja, I am very much going to test drive before I buy anything. Prior to the current I tested everything that interested me. Will do the same again. If I could afford a GT4 Cayman I'd likely also be ordering one of those, but optioned up you're looking at a near R2m car. Even base it's more pricey than a 911CT, which is a juicey car.

At the end of the day I think all the lads with job security are going to be making a similar call, so just keen to see what you guys are thinking. As I did say though, a big part of me also just thinks, you have a fast car (hell, too fast, I break grip in 2nd like it's nothing), it's pretty and it's quite rare and unique and cool and fun. Why get something new?

But we all know, the itch for a change is a hard one to scratch...

 

[TurboLlew]

A few great points above

I had posted something about the Supra - I see that it is now even lower with demo cars at R599K. Interest rates are attractive, but don't make rash decisions if you are on the border of affordability. Only you will know this for yourself. There will be MANY good deals yet to come by end of the year. I mentioned a few times I was house shopping. This past week agents have kept sending updates... one place (1900 square metres of land and 450 square metres under roof) dropped from 4.6M to 3.8M pre-COVID and junk. It is now available for 3.2 and they are taking offers...  I was told by my agent she recommends rather advertising my current place as a rental (I wish the sale had gone through).

I don't think it is an ambulance chaser approach to take advantage of market conditions. Remember people knew the risks they were taking with balloons, being on the edge of affordability for cars and houses, wanting to 'do rich people things' like leasing and not owning anything, pretending that they were 'doing better things' with their money saved from these activities etc. When you're buying everything in your life as a service and suddenly your income disappears AND you have limited savings AND you also don't have anything you own you suddenly realise where you REALLY are in life. A car you own is always going to be better than one you're paying for regardless of what the dealer or the bank will tell you.

Don't think you are going to get a new M2 exactly as you want. If BMW was able to do this, then I would probably have gotten one way before I even drove the 4C or had time to think about it too much... and all I really wanted was the better brakes. Apart from colour, it is what it is. They even told me if I ordered the car and ticked the box it would arrive without the brakes (ABM, JSN, Zambesi). That was also annoying for me because when I think about buying a new car over R1M, I really don't want to be told I am lucky to take what is on the floor. I am glad I didn't spend R1.1M on an M2 nearly a year a go. Ask owners just how bad the depreciation has been.

You won't go wrong with Porsche in terms of retaining value. Porsche and Daytona Group control the prices of their brands religiously. It is why McLaren is a disaster everywhere else in the world including the UK in terms of support/service/resale yet here in SA owners (somewhat unusually) have a better experience. 911s are special cars in many ways (Particularly in C4S, Turbo and GTx forms). The GT4 is probably the one out of the Cayman's I would take. A big attraction to me for Porsche is their 'approved' track events as well as the fact that (obviously at a predictable cost) you can extend the plan to 15 years and 200000km. I would gladly pay the R30K knowing if my Porsche needed a new motor, or transmission or carbon ceramics etc it would get them new from the factory fitted by Porsche with no questions asked even in year 10 of ownership. This is why my next car will almost certainly be a GT3 RS.

I would just caution against being too sure that your job is safe from COVID because you've survived in the short term. The ripples will be felt for years and worse is yet to come.

Also please drive these cars for yourself and try to avoid watching youtube and reading too much. I found all these cars very different to what reviews actually claimed and also reviewers tend to look for a car that does well at everything (albeit clinically). You might have specific things or aspects of the character of each that will be more to your taste. It doesn't matter if you like a car that Chris Harris doesn't or that everyone else can't understand - as long as it does what YOU want it to do that is what counts.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident I'm covid safe job wise. And working in finance I have a pretty good grip on what is/isn't affordable. Also happy I didn't take any big financial decisions in the past year or so.

I think international trends will hit us more in the coming months. One likely outcome of Cvirus is that we'll see economies open up more - I think that as the big manufacturers close their local plants as global demand for (say) C classes dries up, their ability to pressure government to keep the protectionist rules around imports will also decrease - will be interesting to watch in the (admittedly) longer term.

Ja, I am very much going to test drive before I buy anything. Prior to the current I tested everything that interested me. Will do the same again. If I could afford a GT4 Cayman I'd likely also be ordering one of those, but optioned up you're looking at a near R2m car. Even base it's more pricey than a 911CT, which is a juicey car.

At the end of the day I think all the lads with job security are going to be making a similar call, so just keen to see what you guys are thinking. As I did say though, a big part of me also just thinks, you have a fast car (hell, too fast, I break grip in 2nd like it's nothing), it's pretty and it's quite rare and unique and cool and fun. Why get something new?

But we all know, the itch for a change is a hard one to scratch...

It sounds like you should keep that Z4 and enjoy it a bit more...

I still miss my S2000 for that smile factor. It is not that my cars don't put a smile on my face - they do! It is that it was a paid up car that I didn't REALLY have to sell and if you had to measure rands spent vs. smiles created it would be beating hyper cars LOL

 

[MR_Y]

Also another suggestion I'd like to add is the Audi TTS or TTRS considering you moving out of your Z4 M which also has 2 seats. Also really good cars even though they don't hold value like the porsche, but the AWD Quattro system is brilliant no lies.

Current : '19 BMW M240i F22 Lci Coupe
Ex : '13 BMW 320i F30 M Sport

I test drove a current shape 2017 TTS that was newer, faster and much better specced than my 2013 Boxster, before I decided on the Porsche (both cars priced the same).
The TTS felt super quick - 228kw/400Nm vs 195kw/285Nm - at Highveld altitude and more comfortable too.
It is only when pushing it hard do you feel that imperfections in the road catch out the suspension more so in the TTS and the whole car shakes/jolts a bit.
The TTS that I drove had magnetic ride (or some other adaptive suspension name) and 19 inch wheels.
My Boxster has PASM (also adapative suspension) and 19 inch wheels, with wider rubber on the rear. 
The Porsche, even though it is a convertible, handled these rough roads better than the TTS Coupe.
Even though it is RWD, the balance and rigidity of the car is in another league compared to the TTS.
However, if robot racing is more important, then the TTS wins hands down.

On the point of AWD.
In the TTS and TTRS they are not "proper" AWD, but rather mainly FWD that only kick into AWD when slip is detected.
This is a Haldex system - shared with the Golf R, S3, Tiguan and all other transverse engine models in the VAG range.
Proper/permanent AWD is the Torsen system - this is in the S4, S5, RS5, etc.
These cars handle in another league compared to the Haldex models.

In normal driving, you will not feel the difference and, in most cases, a Haldex car is fine.

 

[Fordkoppie]

IIRC you daily your Z4M??

In that regard, I would say the 996Turbo is the one to go for.
Just keep in mind that while they are exempt from the IMS bearing issue, they have other potential fatal issues. One being the water jacket extensions pulling out of the block/head castings and dumping all the coolant in an instant. Heat gauge never catches it, because there is no coolant remaining to give a meaningful reading on the gauge.

A C4S will bore you after owning the Z4 IMO

 

[TBP88]

IIRC you daily your Z4M??

In that regard, I would say the 996Turbo is the one to go for.
Just keep in mind that while they are exempt from the IMS bearing issue, they have other potential fatal issues. One being the water jacket extensions pulling out of the block/head castings and dumping all the coolant in an instant. Heat gauge never catches it, because there is no coolant remaining to give a meaningful reading on the gauge.

A C4S will bore you after owning the Z4 IMO

Well right now I daily nothing! Haha

I currently take the bus to work, I stay about 6 myciti stops from work, a no brainer.

That is another fear, it's strange, the other day I saw a 993carreraRS, was asking something like R5m+ levels, but it's a 210kw car or so... I have no doubt it's a chunk faster than any S54, but power is still, well, power. 40kw isn't nothing.

Took the car for a drive this afternoon and again just felt "why". Right now my gut says unless a real *deal* comes along, I'll wait. But when I go 3 days away from the Z, then I start gumtreeing and autotradering again

 

[Woodies]

Porsche Porsche Porsche! The s54 is a great motor and you will miss it. I was looking at a 991 Carrera S back in January and stupidly test drove it. I REALLY wanted it after that, but just couldn’t justify another weekend toy. The e46 m3 gives me enough thrills and I hopefully never need to sell it. For the price difference in the M2 vs your z4M it’s not worth it. Promise you will miss the z4M. If it was 1 car and it had to be your daily, the M2 might make more sense.

 

[Kyle]

So many amazing cars being discussed here  :smilebounce: . I'm sure whatever you choose will tick the box. 

I suppose as a car guy the desire to trade up will always exist.. Some act on it immediately while others tend to take some time or even settle for lusting over it forever. The funny thing is, you will find every excuse as to why your current car just won't cut it.. Any why you NEED to upgrade (speaking from experience in relative terms). After a while I missed the simplicity of the cheaper cars I had owned, they were somehow just less complicated to own... (and then I bought an Alfa but let's not talk about that right now  :fencelook: ) 

Whatever you decide, at least the test drives will be fun!

 

[Clint@MMS AUTO]

Aim for Porsche , That’s my plan