to be,or not to be?

[Coisman]

imp:
Chris, now imagine behind that 100 BMW's a crazy lady on a broom chasing down a spietkop... :mmm:

 

[Fordkoppie]

:roflol:

 

[Coisman]

:rollsmile:

 

[Mike1]

I see this ending in tears very soon.

Let me be the first to say that you guys should not be doing this, when an accident happens (which is will with over 50 male BMW Drivers) in the middle of the night it is not only a life that may be lost but also irreversible damage that will be done to BMW Fanatics as an enthusiast car club.

I think this is something the club should do every 3 to 4 months - At this rate you guys are going overboard and it is a matter of time until something goes wrong.

I am surprised that the forum itself (Management Team) has not yet commented.

This will end badly, mark my words. There needs to be limits, restrictions and proper regulation for these runs.

An example - The Audi Club makes you sign a form when they have breakfast runs to protect itself and members from idiots driving at stupid speeds, people that show off and for legal reasons.

Just putting it out there - It only takes a single blowout to wipe out 10 cars, with 10 passengers resulting in many many people suffering all in the name of stupid actions.

Mike

 

[Coisman]

imp:
The only reason the midnight runs are being done so rapidly is because of the tolls being instituted.

I agree with you about the possible dangers involved, like when on the last run a dog was hit... Imagine the person involved swerved or lost control, thus causing an accident, it could have ended badly, but that can happen every time we drive our cars, not just on a midnight run where there are allot of members driving their cars with excitement.

Concerning the signing of forms... I dont know how that might work?? :thinking:

 

[Crash_Nemesis]

Just to clear up confusion about the dog being hit...

... the dog was already dead, lying in the highway waiting for us, what was left of its body that is. It was inevitable, whether it was a midnight run or not, that dog's corpse was going to be run over...

 

[Mike1]

I agree with you about the possible dangers involved, like when on the last run a dog was hit... Imagine the person involved swerved or lost control, thus causing an accident, it could have ended badly, but that can happen every time we drive our cars, not just on a midnight run where there are allot of members driving their cars with excitement.

The difference is easy, when you have an accident only you have an accident.

When a BMW Fanatic has an accident with 50 cars driving at illegal speeds in the middle of the night on a pre-arranged run it is not just an accident. It is against the law, it is negative publicity to the forum and BMW Fanatics as a whole as I can assure you that news will spread.

One prominent GTI owner ends up with his car on a rock a few months ago and every forum is all over it. Imagine the effect an accident (nevermind it being fatal or not) would have on this forum.

You yourself are at huge risk, if there is an accident and they know an officer (who works for Metro) was there condoning it you too are going to get nailed, nevermind that if there is an accident there will be an investigation and people like Herr stand the chance to be held responsible for what can easily be classed as illegal racing or better yet street racing considering what goes on at these runs.

This thread alone already has several members proving that they were driving illegally - Lets not argue that what these runs do is provide the perfect platform for the perfect accident.

There is no need to "imagine" anything. The facts remain that boys will be boys, ego's will remain prominent and given the scenario and environment the Midnight Runs offer its fairly obvious that next time it may not be a dog but rather a drunk homeless person, or a tree or even another motorist.

A run during the day is vastly different to at night, I am sure you agree Cois. Do you drive your BMW differently at night to that of during the day? Of course you do. The roads are quieter so you drive faster, visibility is decreased, people are tired and then you have one blowout and thats 20 cars and 20 injured people.

At the last run, did any of you check if all those partaking knew the roads you were taking? Or had even driven them? Did you make sure all the cars had legal tyres? Would you do those speeds if you knew the car in front of you had canvas showing through the rear tyres and is a potential threat to your life?

I think not. I am not saying you should stop these events, not at all.

But some regulation is required, at the end of the day people will be held accountable when the sh*t hits the fan -Are you prepared to be one of those people?

Limit the numbers, do an inspection of the cars for road worthy purposes. Plan a route and make sure those tagging along have driven that route before. Impose a speed limit (not 120 but a limit) and make sure that those there understand the risk they take and that they are responsible for their actions.

I think that is fair, but as far as I can see what you guys are doing is no better than a bunch of Jap car owners all meeting up and tearing up the town.

Mike

 

[Ga-3M]

As Crash has said, the dog was already dead, lying there in the middle of the highway.
Another point that I would like to add is that even though we drive spiritedly, I have noticed that the guys are not hooligans or assholes and extremely careful and aware of their surroundings whilst driving! You'll also see that the big group fragments into lots of smaller groups during the run which helps a lot with the dangers involved in this type of thing.
@ Minimike, I understand your concerns, but I can tell you now that I feel safer doing a spirited run like this with a group of enthusiasts like myself when the highways are quiet at night, than driving on them during the day when there are 10 times the amount of hazards and worries!!

 

[Mike1]

As Crash has said, the dog was already dead, lying there in the middle of the highway.
Another point that I would like to add is that even though we drive spiritedly, I have noticed that the guys are not hooligans or assholes and extremely careful and aware of their surroundings whilst driving! You'll also see that the big group fragments into lots of smaller groups during the run which helps a lot with the dangers involved in this type of thing.
@ Minimike, I understand your concerns, but I can tell you now that I feel safer doing a spirited run like this with a group of enthusiasts like myself when the highways are quiet at night, than driving on them during the day when there are 10 times the amount of hazards and worries!!

Thats such a contradiction because I bet, in fact I know that half of the people on that run would never do those speeds during the day.

And lets be honest, other than there being less vehicles/pedestrians (Though this is debatable) on the road nothing about the dark makes any of the daytime hazards and worries any less prevalent.

The point is simple, you guys are being irresponsible and you need to slow it down a little bit. Its still a public road, night or day it makes no difference.

You still treat it with the same respect.

 

[Coisman]

imp:
I for one make sure EVERYTHING on my car is checked BEFORE I dare get on the highway, tyre pressure, oil level, coolant level, clean windscreen and working wipers... well, I kinda do a systematic check like the one you are suppose to do EVERYTIME before you drive!! :fencelook:

Now I hear what you are saying about the dangers and the speeds involved, but once again, it can happen ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, not just on the run.

Also what Ga-3M is saying about the groups breaking into smaller groups is true, I for one was in a little group of 4 cars, and we mostly kept to ourselves, and when I sped up, the others would keep up, and if they fell back, so did I. I was driving at 90km/h in the slow lane, at one stage, to wait for a fellow fanatic that fell behind.

If a form or something should be drawn up, thats fine by me, every guy takes responcibility over himself and his car, and i would Gladly sign such a form, DEPENDING on the terms on this form, so why dont you get a copy of the form the guys use on the other clubs, or draft one, and post it so we can see what you mean by it. raise:

PS: I accept and will deal with any shit that should come my way if something were to happen on one of the meets, but there is no way I can be held responcible for another guy driving his car to the limit on a public road. :rollsmile:

 

[Mike1]

PS: I accept and will deal with any shit that should come my way if something were to happen on one of the meets, but there is no way I can be held responcible for another guy driving his car to the limit on a public road.

Nonsense - You are the one person who is legally bound not to condone and promote these events. Listen to yourself mate.

My point, and resolution to these Midnight Runs is simple.

Arrange them amongst yourselves and not as an event that this forum partakes in. If BMW OWNERS (not Fanatics) want to get involved then that is their choice. If Herr wants to be held accountable for the creation of what is effectively an illegal event then that is his choice but it should be done off the forum and certainly not bragged about on the forum.

These events have virtually no control, and ok you travel in smaller groups as the evening goes on that great but 4 cars is still 3 more than one BMW owner enjoying his car.

Its 3 extra cars that can cause 3 extra accidents.

Cois, you yourself should know that the most dangerous time to drive is at 12am to 2am in the morning. Especially on a weekend and especially after pay day (as proposed earlier) when everyone can afford to get completely wasted and be that car that turns in front of a convoy of 4 BMW Fanatics driving at stupid speeds.

Justify it all you want - Accidents happen and there is never any warning or any way of avoiding them.

Mike

 

[Coisman]

ok... :sorry:

 

[Sankekur]

@herr bmw: we could always change them to midnight park-offs after the toll roads come into effect, just a big bunch BMW's blocking up a filling station late at night :rollsmile:

 

[Ga-3M]

As Crash has said, the dog was already dead, lying there in the middle of the highway.
Another point that I would like to add is that even though we drive spiritedly, I have noticed that the guys are not hooligans or assholes and extremely careful and aware of their surroundings whilst driving! You'll also see that the big group fragments into lots of smaller groups during the run which helps a lot with the dangers involved in this type of thing.
@ Minimike, I understand your concerns, but I can tell you now that I feel safer doing a spirited run like this with a group of enthusiasts like myself when the highways are quiet at night, than driving on them during the day when there are 10 times the amount of hazards and worries!!

Thats such a contradiction because I bet, in fact I know that half of the people on that run would never do those speeds during the day.

And lets be honest, other than there being less vehicles/pedestrians (Though this is debatable) on the road nothing about the dark makes any of the daytime hazards and worries any less prevalent.

The point is simple, you guys are being irresponsible and you need to slow it down a little bit. Its still a public road, night or day it makes no difference.

You still treat it with the same respect.

Where's a contradiction MiniMike? Not once did I say that any of us do those speeds during the day!!! If I must explain to you further, I said I would rather drive spiritedly with enthusiasts like myself when it's quiet at night, than drive normally during the day when the highways are filled with 10 times the amount of hazards!! So where my friend is the contradiction?!!!

And we do this on a 4 lane highway where visibility in my opinion was actually excellent!! We not cruising on some backroad where you can't see anything 100m in front of you! I think you need to relax, and realise that the rest of us aren't as stupid and irresponsible as you clearly think we are!

 

[Coisman]

:facepalm:

 

[Mike1]

As Crash has said, the dog was already dead, lying there in the middle of the highway.
Another point that I would like to add is that even though we drive spiritedly, I have noticed that the guys are not hooligans or assholes and extremely careful and aware of their surroundings whilst driving! You'll also see that the big group fragments into lots of smaller groups during the run which helps a lot with the dangers involved in this type of thing.
@ Minimike, I understand your concerns, but I can tell you now that I feel safer doing a spirited run like this with a group of enthusiasts like myself when the highways are quiet at night, than driving on them during the day when there are 10 times the amount of hazards and worries!!

Thats such a contradiction because I bet, in fact I know that half of the people on that run would never do those speeds during the day.

And lets be honest, other than there being less vehicles/pedestrians (Though this is debatable) on the road nothing about the dark makes any of the daytime hazards and worries any less prevalent.

The point is simple, you guys are being irresponsible and you need to slow it down a little bit. Its still a public road, night or day it makes no difference.

You still treat it with the same respect.

Where's a contradiction MiniMike? Not once did I say that any of us do those speeds during the day!!! If I must explain to you further, I said I would rather drive spiritedly with enthusiasts like myself when it's quiet at night, than drive normally during the day when the highways are filled with 10 times the amount of hazards!! So where my friend is the contradiction?!!!

And we do this on a 4 lane highway where visibility in my opinion was actually excellent!! We not cruising on some backroad where you can't see anything 100m in front of you! I think you need to relax, and realise that the rest of us aren't as stupid and irresponsible as you clearly think we are!

Somewhere along the lines you missed the entire point or reason for my post.

So I will make it loud and clear.

I do not care where you drive. Who you drive with. Or how responsible you are. Non of this can stop or avoid an accident. Accidents happen - There is nothing you can do about it.

Furthermore I didnt call anyone stupid, but I do agree that a convoy of 50 BMW's led partially by a Metro Officer who condones this, doing illegal speeds is pretty damn near my understanding of the term irresponsible.

Perhaps the term contradiction was not the right word, maybe Oxymoron is more correct. Instead of focusing on my grammar rather understand that just because you are driving with enthusiasts (of which all have various degree's of driving skill, just because you drive a BMW doesnt make you a driving God) at night doesnt make it any more acceptable to break the law then say driving during the day at those speeds.

The simple fact remains that accidents will happen and that I see it happening on these runs as the scenario is ideal for it.

I am merely stating the obvious, the organisers of these runs need to put boundaries and limits in place to try best avoid any potential harm being done which may cause harm to BMW Fanatics or specific individuals involved, like Herr or Cois or the driver that loses a leg when he wraps his BMW around a pole.

Mike

 

[Ga-3M]

We are all entitled to our own opinions and thank you Mike for sharing yours, you do make some valid points which we do and should take into consideration, but your understanding of the run and judgement thereof are from someone who has not actually experienced one, and I know you would really enjoy one if you were able to attend, and you would see that the picture you have painted in your mind of us is really a lot worse than the reality.:thumbs:

 

[Mike1]

I understand where you are coming from and you are correct, I wasnt there and didnt experience it.

But I have been on many many runs before and I can assure you that where there are boys and their toys there is also groot kak. :rollsmile:

Met lekker lag, kom lekker huil.

I dont want to see a post about a Fanatic getting hurt. :thumbs:

 

[herr bmw]

ok lets not get out of hand now.

point 1.coisman was at the rear and not at the front leading .
point 2.highways are well lit up,it was only the section where crash rode over the dead dog,strangely enough i drove the route the week before and all lights were working.
point 3.out of the two runs i have organised,we have only had two incidents,and that was crash and carbon 135 riding over a dead dog,which could have happened at any time of the day or night,in fact i nearly hit it as well.and i was doing normal speed as coisman was behind me and everybody had gone home.
point 4.people that are fanatics about there cars,make sure they are in top shape,as was wittnessed on friday night,i didnt see one piece of rubbish parked there.
point 5.people know its going to be a midnight run,and they know there is going to be spirited driving,the guys that dont want to are not forced to do it,they can do the speed limit they want,and my wife commented how well everybody was driving and using indicators,braking well in advance with all rear lights working,and not,in my opinion acting like a bunch of idiots like you claim.
point 6.read the titel of this thread,to be or not to be?it has got big and i realize that i would have to look at it from a different angle now,100+ cars is major,but i have noticed that if you organise a breakfast,or air force,or any run in the day you only get 20 cars if you are lucky.

as some one else is trying to organise a high speed run,i will give my input,but you have to realise that an accident can happen anywhere any time,race track,high speed run or just standing at a red light.

also by the way i drive the r21 every day and i do not do 120

---

@herr bmw: we could always change them to midnight park-offs after the toll roads come into effect, just a big bunch BMW's blocking up a filling station late at night :rollsmile:

sounds likea great idea,but would we get people coming just to park there cars,and stand around chatting?would the police come and harrase us?wouldnt guys then go out and do illeagal steet racing anyway?

even on the breakfast runs we done speeds above 120,and there has been more traffic.

 

[Coisman]

@ Herrbmw... :ty: