Confirmed: FWD Hydrogen Hybrid 1-series concept in the works- Noooooooooooooooooooo!!

Major

Active member
MiniMike19 said:
What the heck is wrong with a front wheel drive BMW?

Who cares about heritage and rubbish? Why must BMW limit themselves because it may offend a few "BMW Fanboi's" whilst said fanboi's offend "tree huggers" and oh I can continue.

Am I the only one here who couldnt care less as to whether BMW go FWD?

It's not a train-smash, and most manufacturers are headed down the flower-sniffing, tree-hugging, foot-spa-giving route. It's just that, until now, BMW have been synonymous with RWD performance-orientated cars. You can't argue that, for cars with equal power figures, the FWD version would perform better in a straight line or on the track, and it's just different for BMW to be considering this route. To be fair, this car isn't really an all-out FWD car in the first place.

It's a shame, not specifically with BMW, but with everyone going the green route. I'm sure that new technology will arrise that will make these green cars as much fun as their petrol chugging variants, but until then everyone is going to hang onto their exhaust tone and driving pleasure for dear life.

In my opinion, the only reason BMW are going FWD is to be green and save costs. That's it. It isn't a superior platform. FWD has, for the most part, been to suit some sort of compromise, and mostly overall cost to punch student/low-cost markets. Obviously they aren't going to start churning out FWD M3's.

MiniMike19 said:
I dont see why everyone rates it so highly... The BMW even with DTC on stills goes sideways... The AMG V8 snakes if you put your foot down to quickly. No wait... All it does is twitch like its on ice. The BMW constantly cuts the power as the back wheels spin in S mode. The Audi 3.3 litre quattro just grips grips to the point where you wish it would crash for some sense of excitement.

That speaks more toward the power of the engine rather than the fact that it's RWD. If any of those cars were somehow FWD they would be undrivable, period. As for the Audi, 4WD neh? If you drive like a crazed madman, any electronic aid will eventually fail to control you and let you hurt yourself. And if you don't like them, you can disable them in most cases.

MiniMike19 said:
And ironically driving GTI's, Mini's etc still feel faster and I see absolutely no reason for rear wheel drive being better then FWD. Both wheel spin (FWD slightly more). Both will go sideways with some prodding. Both chew tyres. Both are fun.

That's your preference, really. Power for power on the same platform, RWD will perform better on most if not any stage, in my opinion. As to why it's better, have a read here. It's honestly come down to personal preference. It's obvious you don't like the oversteering, fish-tailing tendency of RWD, but that doesn't make it inferior, it just doesn't suit you.

In that list you'll see the advantages with FWD have more to do with space, efficiency and cost, while RWD has its advantages in weight distribution, steering ability, handling and braking. Doesn't that sound like BMW right there?

For the average Joe on the street who wouldn't touch the track or try find the limits of their car, the FWD vs RWD debate holds no value for them. To them they're exactly the same, minus the interior space in RWD cars. BTW, I'm not saying you're average Joe. It's obvious that, to you, you haven't found the benefit of RWD as much as you've found the negative aspects.

MiniMike19 said:
Besides... Technically speaking... They do own Mini... And er... last time I checked the Mini was FWD. Oh wait... The new Countryman is 4WD. Sounds like the designers at BMW are in a particularly blasphemous mood lately.

I'm sorry, but BMW have as much to do with Mini as Porsche do with VW, and you don't see rear-engined rear-wheel drive VW's rolling around everywhere. Mini were made for a certain market, BMW for another, as with VW and Porsche, even if one owns the other. They have completely seperate design teams and goals.
 

zaleonardz

Well-known member
Well, I am against the 4wd thing for a everyday road car.

4wd cars are boring, I find that the suspension/handling is so good, its actually boring, to make the back end come out or just have a little bit of fun, you have to be pushing the thing to the limits, and if you then loose it, you and everyone around you is in trouble.

I have had a WRX and a quattro... and well... meh, gimme bucket loads of torque and a rear wheel drive :thumbsup:
 

Nic_s

///Member
applehero said:
....Theoretically it is reckoned that above 225kW, FWD alone is not sufficient.....

It's more like 220bhp is the limit. And even at 200bhp you could still experience torque steer, although manageable.
 

applehero

///Member
Nic_s said:
applehero said:
....Theoretically it is reckoned that above 225kW, FWD alone is not sufficient.....

It's more like 220bhp is the limit. And even at 200bhp you could still experience torque steer, although manageable.

Interesting... So you reckon a vehicle like the Mini JCW is pretty much as high a power a front wheel drive can go, without having too much torque steer? Is this an intuition from experience or is there a calculation one can do? I ask 'cos I'm interested in the subject. :thumbsup:

This is obviously without the consideration of the suspension and differential found in the new Ford RS. Even the "Torque Cancelling" exercises do not completely eliminate torque steer, as in Top Gear test.
 

veridico

///Member
I think top gear did an episode where they took a whole lot of different minis from different tuning houses, and found that the max a mini could handle before becoming undriveable was 275hp. That being said, they said the best drive was from a Hartge mini with 210hp.
 

Nic_s

///Member
applehero said:
Nic_s said:
applehero said:
....Theoretically it is reckoned that above 225kW, FWD alone is not sufficient.....

It's more like 220bhp is the limit. And even at 200bhp you could still experience torque steer, although manageable.

Interesting... So you reckon a vehicle like the Mini JCW is pretty much as high a power a front wheel drive can go, without having too much torque steer? Is this an intuition from experience or is there a calculation one can do? I ask 'cos I'm interested in the subject. :thumbsup:

This is obviously without the consideration of the suspension and differential found in the new Ford RS. Even the "Torque Cancelling" exercises do not completely eliminate torque steer, as in Top Gear test.

There is no calculation to determine whether a certain car can handle it's power or not, it's a general consensus that 200bhp to about 220bhp is about the limit.

200bhp results to about 150KW. One FWD car might be able to handle 150KW with no trouble, another FWD car might have slight torque steer. All that the RS proves is even with the latest diff technology, at some point the amount of power will be to much for the front wheels. The RS is a very good car. The technology is brilliant. But the amount of power you can put in the engine safely will always be limited by the fact it's FWD. The more you go over 200bhp, the more challenging it becomes to handle torque steer. The RS is a proof of this as they had to create new technologies to put 300bhp safely through the front wheels.
 

Raybimmer

New member
Most F1 cars are RWD ( Michael Schumacher must be driving a new front wheel drive formula 1 judging by his speed or lack of it ! ). Tried drifting a FWD car lately ?
No sports/super cars are FWD , IMHO fwd has advantages for economy and space for mom's ( and queen's !! ) taxis . Rwd a male thing !!
Opel ts had 160 kw ( 214 horse powers ) and had bad torque steer, e30 325i good donuts with 126 kw ( 168 horse powers ) ,Audi quattro has grip but steering communication is bad .
If the mass of a vehicle , wheelbase , load distribution on front and rear wheels at rest , centre of gravity above road surface , coefficient of friction between tyres and road surface are known then maximum acceleration for FWD , RWD and AWD can be calculated .
 

moranor@axis

///Member
Official Advertiser
FWD will always = fail...
the only reason it exists is because its cheaper and drivers who dont know what they are doing react better when they lose traction
i think its very sad if BMW go with FWD 4WD is ok but you dont get that pure connection with the road because of all the fidgeting the system does from front to back to keep traction...
thats why most REAL cars are RWD...
 

clutchplate

///Member
this is a very fk'ing simple subject. although most of you are DEAD WRONG

FWD has the WORST traction out of all 3 classes and when you have to avoid stuff, you have much better control in a RWD even if you don't know how to drive.

AWD is for offroad cars or if you wanna go fast in a straight line... not for racing at all, acctually AWD cars have been banned from most forms of tarmac racing series.

RWD is FTMFW !

no issues with that FWD hybrid, besides its not completely FWD its either or.. "xor" for the geeks. besides its not a race car, its a gorcery getter for people worried about taxation in places like europe, we don't have those issues here guys ... so I doubt anyone will be buying these cars here.

moranor is 100% correct, most REAL cars are RWD ..

here is a little video from the best woman driver in the world (fuzzy is exempt from this statement, cause my lawyer is on holiday right now)

<embed src='http://www.f1movies.com/player/player.swf' height='400' width='625' bgcolor='273443' allowscriptaccess='always' allowfullscreen='true' flashvars='skin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f1movies.com%2Fplayer%2Fskins%2Fsnel&backcolor=273443&frontcolor=EEEEE8&lightcolor=EEEEE8&screencolor=273443&autostart=true&controlbar=over&stretching=fill&file=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f1movies.com%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjV18ZBXwwYM%26fmt%3D&repeat=list&plugins=viral-1d'/>


fwd_sucks.jpg


you can't compare this to any fwd car ..
20060723066bn2.jpg
 

moranor@axis

///Member
Official Advertiser
i dont mean any disrespect to MiniMike19 if i were to buy a FWD it would be a mini i like them but a RWD mini that would be epic...
 

Nic_s

///Member
moranor said:
i dont mean any disrespect to MiniMike19 if i were to buy a FWD it would be a mini i like them but a RWD mini that would be epic...

Could be the new Lancia Stratos in a way. :hammerhead:
 
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