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Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
2005 BMW E60 M5
- Thread starter Yuvirp05
- Start date
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Have you bought this one or are you buying one?
Rule of thumb if you've got an E60 (or E46 or E92 for that matter) with no history shared, then you must prepare to do everything on it even if the selling dealer claims it was done.
Very common on these cars to have faked TuneTech or similar third party invoices OR trying to pass off disguised cost estimates/quotes that are presented as though the work was done (no invoice in sight) so CALL the workshops to check and they will generally know the car or will be able to advise. When I was last V10 shopping this happened often. Not sure if it is still the case. The workshop will usually tell you they hounded them for a quote/pricing and then fell off the face of the earth. Whatever you find in terms of documentation, just go through it carefully.
Owners selling these in excellent shape are usually selling them to other people OR with fat binders worth of invoices. The guys who were living on hopes and dreams hoping gearboxes and engines were not going to be subject to the "V10 maintenance" schedule will likely unload them quickly or for cheap.
Plenty of V10 owners on here who will be able to help and advise either way and perhaps one of the previous owners is on here. However what you need to understand is that often the previous owner will have no bearing on the current condition you find a car in (despite it being labeled as "Tom", "Dick" or "Harry's" old car by whoever spots it, it stopped being that person's car the moment someone else took ownership of it and became responsible for it).
As for the value of this exercise, your mileage will vary. You are probably better off getting one of the better workshops to give you a current snapshot of things. If you find the owner whatever you hear may be lies or they may just ignore you. There are also things a dealer may have done in between that are really not the previous owner's problem and makes whatever they say worthless to you anyway.
Thank you @TurboLlew
I will keep that in mind , I will definitely change rod bearings for my mental sanity lol ... any suggestions on what make rod bearings to use and rod bolts ?
Planning on keeping the car for a long while as it has been a dream of mine to own this car.
I will keep that in mind , I will definitely change rod bearings for my mental sanity lol ... any suggestions on what make rod bearings to use and rod bolts ?
Planning on keeping the car for a long while as it has been a dream of mine to own this car.
Katanator
Well-known member
I saw 2 or 3 black ones for sales past 3 months. Last one still available I think.
One at webuycars, went for 167k I think. No history, rooflining sagged. 200k plus kms.
One edenvale for around 200k. Non startes, owner claimed CAS fault so could not test engin and gearbox.
One one on FB marketplace around R380k, think still available.
One at webuycars, went for 167k I think. No history, rooflining sagged. 200k plus kms.
One edenvale for around 200k. Non startes, owner claimed CAS fault so could not test engin and gearbox.
One one on FB marketplace around R380k, think still available.
These cars are becoming rare ... the one in edenvale is a pity she cant start ... the facebook one for 380k is a bit crazy unless she is in great shape ... mileage isnt an issue , as the cars are meant to be driven , my issue is the cars need to be maintained and then that's all good.
TBP88
Well-known member
Honestly, every few months a new OP posts asking about E60 or E9x M cars and the answer really is, just don't bother.
Unless you have *real* fu money, where a R200k+ repair bill out of pocket isn't going to ruin your day, and you have already experienced 99.99% of other cars and just want this level of stupidity, then sure. But for the vast majority of anyone for whom a R20k unexpected bill will make for at the very least a sucky day (or week/month/year!) these just don't make sense. I doubt they'll ever become DEEPLY collectable, maybe the few manual OEM models in the US? But the normal automated versions? There are an exceedingly small number of 4 door cars that have become legitimately collectible, and even then only the very best versions of the cars (talking rare colour combo low mileage e39M5s or a small set of older alpinas perhaps), I can't see this car bucking that trend (and if it was going to, it'd have done it/be doing it now). These have hovered around 200-400k for the rougher to half decent ones for an age now. Meanwhile an E46M3 is probably doing 2X in value over the last 8yrs.
So @OP, really, if you want a fast M 4 door car, get a new M5 or even the newer M3s which are about the size of these anyway, much faster, much better riding and will provide you far fewer issues.
If you want something that sounds good, go and listen to straight piped 981.1 Caymans!
Unless you have *real* fu money, where a R200k+ repair bill out of pocket isn't going to ruin your day, and you have already experienced 99.99% of other cars and just want this level of stupidity, then sure. But for the vast majority of anyone for whom a R20k unexpected bill will make for at the very least a sucky day (or week/month/year!) these just don't make sense. I doubt they'll ever become DEEPLY collectable, maybe the few manual OEM models in the US? But the normal automated versions? There are an exceedingly small number of 4 door cars that have become legitimately collectible, and even then only the very best versions of the cars (talking rare colour combo low mileage e39M5s or a small set of older alpinas perhaps), I can't see this car bucking that trend (and if it was going to, it'd have done it/be doing it now). These have hovered around 200-400k for the rougher to half decent ones for an age now. Meanwhile an E46M3 is probably doing 2X in value over the last 8yrs.
So @OP, really, if you want a fast M 4 door car, get a new M5 or even the newer M3s which are about the size of these anyway, much faster, much better riding and will provide you far fewer issues.
If you want something that sounds good, go and listen to straight piped 981.1 Caymans!
@TBP88 , I totally hear you ... R25k repair bill does annoy my day as I've been spending roughly around that every year on one of my cars ... it is frustrating especially on months where you gotta spend on a birthday or anniversary... I always looked at the last of the naturally aspirated engines as everything has a turbo these days .... dont get me wrong , they are more efficient and much faster however there isnt much joy driving them ... I have a Renault clio R27 , and the amount of smiles per km outweighs the newer clio RS18 that I drove ... but also something that will cost around 200k in maintenance is ridiculous on a long run ... I believe the vanos system is a nightmare.
R25k on an E60 M5 does not buy much in terms of repairs and or maintenance.
Worth remembering that the most expensive BMW one can buy is a cheap M car.
An S50B30 engine overhaul will set you back north of 180k today.
I have an S85 in at the moment with a quote of R280k waiting on funds to materialise and I suspect I will get married to it at this rate.
Worth remembering that the most expensive BMW one can buy is a cheap M car.
An S50B30 engine overhaul will set you back north of 180k today.
I have an S85 in at the moment with a quote of R280k waiting on funds to materialise and I suspect I will get married to it at this rate.
Katanator
Well-known member
I checked the manufactured quantities just the other day. S85 engined cars were much less produced. In the end supply will diminish, engins fail due to bad maintenance, if there is demand prices will go up. Still not an investment by any means.
Most M cars older than 5 years should hold value relatively well if keeping miles low.
In the end it depends on what driving experience you want. For instance z4m to me is such a fun pocket rocket to drive, not the fastest by any means but does it matter. Faster only gets you in more trouble. Definitely next on my list, as well as 911.
Most M cars older than 5 years should hold value relatively well if keeping miles low.
In the end it depends on what driving experience you want. For instance z4m to me is such a fun pocket rocket to drive, not the fastest by any means but does it matter. Faster only gets you in more trouble. Definitely next on my list, as well as 911.
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TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Everything is well documented so there are no real nightmares or unknowns anymore, as long as you follow the maintenance schedule and have money... and a lot of it. The latter is what is not very appetising for most people.
I often joke that I bought my F10 M5 because I was too poor to run a V10
. If you can, try to go and drive one to get it out of your system as well. After being quite enthusiastic about 458s and GT3s and F430s the past few weeks I am kind of off them having my F90 back and doing a few runs in my Alfa for instance. Less that I don't want them and more that I would have to give up two perfectly good cars, both of which I've owned for years now and know the full histories of.I would suggest you go and drive some special turbo cars as well. If you are saying you don't get much joy driving them I can only assume you've driven the wrong ones. You can go and drive these NA cars and there is a mystique to them and yes some of them are brilliant... but there is an insanity to a turbo car that brings its own kind of joy. To me, they feel visceral in some sense, very refined in others and with a great soundtrack but also, frankly, they feel like donkeys alot of the time (especially at altitude).
The miles per smile in your R27 that you mention (one of my favourite little cars BTW) is also going to be coupled with the relatively carefree nature of owning and driving something like that vs. the existential dread that comes with driving something that is very expensive to keep going. You are getting proper exotic bills with the S85.
Whether you have lots of money or not, spending the value of a holiday for 4 in Mauritius is not likely to make your Mrs very happy. Only at the truly FU levels of money that @TBP88 mentions will you truly be carefree with these cars IMHO and even then it may be irritating. You also need a specialist to work on it since BMW might not have techs who have ever seen one let alone worked on one depending on where you are based.
Avoid getting caught up in the latest "last of" hype as well. This "last of" story has been happening since 2005 across many brands as has "6MT or you're a lazy casual". The particular one for M5s has been "Last manual" for our market with the E39, "Last NA" for the E60, "Last RWD" for F10 and last non-electrified with the F90. At every single point people have spoken about "analogueness" or other 'x' factors because even this is a moving target until the next thing comes out. With M5s, you can make a case for owning any of them though - there is something special in each of them. Even the G90 - the only reason not to buy one for the use case most M5 owners have is if you already have an F90.
I love the E39 M5. It's actually my favourite BMW. You could get them for under 200K before someone anointed them as God's chosen M5... but even in the 400s a few years back they were in conditions that made no sense. The other bit is this stupidity of "the new cars are not as good" that follows the increasing of prices for 20 year+ old cars beyond the prices of their 4 generation newer modern counterparts. The only people saying that are a) people who have them and b) people who are trying to sell them. At today's prices if you had to tell me I could do a straight swap of my F90 for any of the E39s asking stupid money, I would show you the door... but that is the reality -there are E39s asking more than I would realistically get for my F90...
My feeling is that your budget for an E60 over a 5 year period is going to be about 600K including buying the car itself. You are trading a 20K monthly installment for something newer, faster, more reliable etc for a 50-100K bill now and then... on a car that will likely never be worth more than 450-500K on its best day, UNLESS bought at very low miles and then pickled.
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Worth noting that these cars were not artificially limited run cars with long waitlists etc. They were relatively unpopular cars in their time (relative to the market - good for what they are) and that kind of rarity is not the same as you'd get from collectibles or limited run cars.
The E6x in particular are also not "Midlife crisis" cars generally speaking so that market is also out in terms of keeping prices buoyant. There are also very few (if any) collector grade E60 M5s still available. It is even tough to find F10 M5s and F12/13 M6s in "good" condition let alone collector grade. The one or two Ms we have spotted and noted as such sell overnight if they are truly in that category even at high asking prices.
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
There we go - from the horse's mouth. @Yuvirp05 you can also contact TuneTech and they shared a heck of a lot of good info on maintenance, various costs and catastrophic failure costs as well with me when I had initially shopped (and I was shopping at a time when these cars could still be had on extended plans LOL so 13-ish years ago now). You can expect parts availability today to be much worse and costs to be much higher than even I remember.
TBP88
Well-known member
I think most of this has bottomed, and in terms of *entry and exit* an E60 is unlikely to be ruinious. At R250k, will it really ever go down? There'll always be another person keen to enter around that sort of money. The issue is more total cost of ownership - this is really the calculus to do when buying a(ny) car, new or used.
On a new car you save on maintaining, but lose given:
1) depreciation
2) higher insurance
4) interest, assuming you finance
on an old car you save on entry point and lose on:
1) maintaining
2) depreciation (depending on where in the cars cycle you buy)
An E60 is probably fine on 2, but catastrophically bad on 1, as Peter said - R280k bills aren't outside of the realms of realism. And again, even if you get one for R200k, spend R300k doing whatever it needs to get it to be decent, it will not be a R500k car, likely not even a R400k car as the next owner will for "peace of mind" want to do most of what you had just done again, so your maintaining cost is dead-weight here.
The numbers here are also instructive, a Z3M is worth ~ 2x what a Z4M is, even though the Z4M has the same engine, much more sophisticated suspension and is far more polarising from a looks POV (to the average person anyway). But there are 2x as many Z3Ms. Production quantity only matters when the demand is big enough to make prices rise. Marginally speaking unless the floor collapses in terms of E60M5 supply (and again, the top of the market will be delivery miles, rare cars in manual in the US, not SA moonmiles cars that have seen more spinning than a top in a std 2 schoolyard).
Again, @OP, yes, they do sound fantastic. Probably better than anything this side of R1m, maybe even this side of R2m! There are better car experiences than an E60 for similar money, and for far less, considering the reliability hassle.
Sibonelo
Active member
I guess with any car its always a loosing game. just depends how much desire vs logic you will to apply. whether new or old you will loose money! its seldom you don't.. pick your poison. With a new car its the depreciation plus the interest on the car. so you pay 1.5 times the sales price in 5 years and the value in those five years is down. Old car its maintanance and that initial outlay of full purchase price..
I was lucky enough to find a e39 m5 for 160 and I was very aware I will need the same amount min to get her in descent shape. I'm 180k into it now. At 350 I needed to get out of it I rate I can get my money back and some. Probably won't be same story on an E60. On my M2C I put a sizeable deposit to offset that interest hole. I plan on keeping it after paying it off. been tempted by New M2 but a 1.5m for me is a lot of money. The idea of having to pay in a shortfall to get out of a car doesn't sit well with me. but either way there is very little argument in thinking you won't loose money on a car. just depends how big a punch you will to take.
I was lucky enough to find a e39 m5 for 160 and I was very aware I will need the same amount min to get her in descent shape. I'm 180k into it now. At 350 I needed to get out of it I rate I can get my money back and some. Probably won't be same story on an E60. On my M2C I put a sizeable deposit to offset that interest hole. I plan on keeping it after paying it off. been tempted by New M2 but a 1.5m for me is a lot of money. The idea of having to pay in a shortfall to get out of a car doesn't sit well with me. but either way there is very little argument in thinking you won't loose money on a car. just depends how big a punch you will to take.
Sibonelo
Active member
a left hand suggestion. when I was looking for the E39 I saw a couple E55's solid cars and if forums and YouTube are true the maintenance is cheaper than e60 but again probably won't appreciate much. what I noted with that era of AMG is that you find more of them with documented histories compared to the BMW's of same era
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
You're always going to have a big whack of depreciation brand new, but there was a sweet spot of sorts to buy in where you got a basically new car experience from a purchase and ownership experience for quite a bit less, and you aren't in a hole for too long if you're financing either.
I have found the sweet spot I used to buy in (1-2 years old, plenty of plan, extendable to end of financing, if any) no longer exists for me. Either that or the cars all get snapped up too quickly since BMW had virtually no M8s they could show me and I'd have to 'downgrade a number' to buy new/er in the window. You have to go 4-5 years old and that (for me) reduces my appetite dramatically...
Your equation works for the E39 now is because the 'nicer' ones are into 7 figures (asking price). At some point when these were 200K and nice ones were 400, it didn't make any sense to do what you're doing. I feel like that won't happen for the E60 since you're 'restoring' an E39 that's neglected. An E60 in good condition will require that money on an ongoing (and sometimes unexpected) basis as though it is on life support. Either way, you have to play the long game. E39 will absolutely be worth keeping going if you have one, even at great cost.
Nothing wrong with any of these ending up as labours of love of course. That is the reality of what they are. I still love all of the above LOL.
Pretty much all of the 55s are great and unique experiences. The only major issue is the sensotronic brakes which have solutions nowadays and the ABC suspension issues on some (perhaps its only some years too) - which are also 'known' things that can be easily (and permanently) fixed nowadays.
