Xcede vs JB4 on same car, same dyno

[Dean ///M]

"Kish, where is the wheel power dyno? Chiplogic reads Engine power. For all we know he's making the same power as you. I can't do this without a wheel power dyno graph."

JP's car will make 400wkw on any dyno any day. Altitude tune means that it's allergic to Salt:=): And guys please don't bring in religion.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Dean is it possible I can see a wheel power graph? Reason being I didn't come up with the physics of trap speed. Sir Isaac Newton did in his laws of physics. If that dad is trapping 189 then it's not making 400kw. It's not me saying this. It's Sir Isaac Newton. I hope you understand that this isn't about me but about the trap speed

 

[Dean ///M]

Understand your point but there's too many variables which can affect it especially if it's 6MT. But even at 189 this car is 400+, we are going to dyno it at Stealth soon.

 

[hoosain]

Jesus is a famous Mitsubishi tuner from Denver Colorado.

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before we leave it at that I must ask what you think the BMS backend flashes do from a technical standpoint?

Common sense would dictate that one would use a back end flash in situations where the piggyback doesn't have the control for the solution required.

Big turbo's or NOS, for example would require a total reshape of the advance curve. Phasing a few degrees with CPS offsetting just won't cut it.

Also there are some limitations on the fuelling & specifically the fuel trims by biasing the widebands. So if you tuning for E85 or any other custom alcohol fuels, then a back end would offer more control.
:roflol:
VANOS, speed limiters, turning off nannies, throttle maps a whole host of other reasons. But to answer your question, custom fuelling, timing and reprofiles boost curves is where you would need a back end. It wouldn't make much of a difference for a car with downpipes only.

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so sherwin what you saying
car with dp +jb4 will be equal to
car with dp +jb4+E85 flash because the flash wont yield any more power

Who's talking about E85? Who runs E85 here? I'm talking a back end flash for DP's. And yes I'm saying it won't make a difference for a car with only DP's.

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you clearly don't know what you talking about
you get different types of backend flashes for the type of fuel you running viz pump fuel you would use a pump flash richer afr and conservative timing e85 flash leaner afr and higher timing
btw you use e85 it's also known as ethanol

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Understand your point but there's too many variables which can affect it especially if it's 6MT. But even at 189 this car is 400+, we are going to dyno it at Stealth soon.

Dean I'm not trying to be funny, but you can't trap 189 with 400kw in an X35. You just can't. There would have been a problem. Do you agree? This is a funny game and all of us have been bitten in the past with the allure of horsepower & we have come short. I remember spending vast amounts of money on Schrick cams on my E46 M3 and running slower than my stock times.

I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just saying I would like to see a 400kw wheel power graph. Saying it will make that power doesn't mean much. Not trying to be funny, I have trapped 191 up here with around 280 wkw in an N54.

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you clearly don't know what you talking about
you get different types of backend flashes for the type of fuel you running viz pump fuel you would use a pump flash richer afr and conservative timing e85 flash leaner afr and higher timing
btw you use e85 it's also known as ethanol

Ok you got me. I don't know what I'm talking about.

I know all about tuning for different fuels. I asked you a question. Who is running E85? This car isn't. It's running E40. I don't know anyone running E85 on any car up here but I don't know what many people. Maybe you know more people than me. Do you personally know someone running 85% ethanol (E85)?

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No time to read all of this but without any flash no meth and with Nf on Map5 335i, N54 made 300wkw's on Stealths dyno. As far as I have read Terry did do a dyno run on a stock car pump fuel with his flash and it made 291wkw's that was almost a year ago. Results are on N54 Tech. And Terry is not the only person who does the back end flashes there are more potent one's. Last FBO N54 with back end, States made close to 360wkw's, stock snails.

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Straight from the horses mouth: DOn't see the fight in Hp, track time talks.

From Terry:

11-26-2014, 10:07 PM

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They are running 23psi+ in the midrange, an overly aggressive timing curve, and testing in 5th gear with cold weather. It's not rocket science. We did 481rw stock turbo last year at 21psi. Realistically though stock turbo maps more than 450whp don't perform well at the track. We did 123-125mph stock turbo running a 440whp map. Higher powered maps resulted in the same or less MPH.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27939

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Ok that's great. I really & truly wish those guys well and well done on making very good power on their dyno's.

I am saying you don't need a back end flash on a car with just downpipes and even if you do, it won't make more power.

Hussain now adds that E85 (As in 85% ethanol, 15% fuel) would benefit from a back end flash. Well yes I agree. But the car on the dyno on this thread is not running E85.

 

[hoosain]

a e85 backend flash can be used on any car running a 40 to 50 % ratio of e85/e95 to 95 pump fuel so yes that would make it E40
I think that's what you are running on the cars + a can of torco

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

I asked this in one of the other threads and didn't get an answer. What exactly is an altitude tune? Would the car run lean when at the coast due to the extra air? Or are there other maps within the ecu to compensate for the extra airflow? If so is it not then just a good map? Where does the altitude part come into play or is that just the marketing you're going for?

The marketing I'm getting is from breaking records on the dyno. What I call it is largely irrelevant. And how I'm breaking the records is what I'm doing in the maps. Some of it is specific to altitude. Some of it isn't. Your question is what tuning is specific to altitude? Well it's the opposite of what you said actually, it has less airflow up here. The same load targets deliver less load, less airflow with more duty cycle. Such is the nature of thinner air that the turbo has to spin harder to make the same boost that a sea-level car makes & in doing so runs outside the optimum efficiency of the TD03 wheel and generates more heat.

So one can combat this to a degree with some WGDC map changes and some changes in the PID logic. And lots of VANOS changes, totally different to sea-level. And lots more changes.

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a e85 backend flash can be used on any car running a 40 to 50 % ratio of e85/e95 to 95 pump fuel so yes that would make it E40
I think that's what you are running on the cars + a can of torco

We are running 10% up to 40% on the N54. I don't know anyone running E85 hence my confusion when you asked about it. E40 is totally different to E85. It's less than half the ethanol content of E85.

 

[George Smooth]

Out of interest sake what peak boost does the Himalaya map run?

 

[hoosain]

I explained myself should have said E85 mix

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Out of interest sake what peak boost does the Himalaya map run?

15psi with no hardware, 16-17psi with downpipes.

 

[Dean ///M]

I just hope we are not doing Dyno Tuning here:fencelook: 16-17Psi = 300wkw's with only HW being Dp's, you are good. So at the Coast you say we can add another 10%? BMSPORT if you not busy let's get your car over to Stealth btw there is an open dyno day at Stealth HQ, 21 Dec let's run our cars there and if the attitude guys sorry altitude guys are already here on holiday please join us. Eish, Silly Season started early. Just joking gents have a great day.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Morning Dean. Here is Gideon's graph with the changes I have made in the new map. Gideon is on 15psi and I have phased the boost in due to his clutch hot being that healthy. He went from 260 to to 290kw. And he has a healthy 30kw more power at high rpm. His peak boost is 15psi but he his boost drop off is a lot better. Making power and holding it at high rpm is not all about boost. Making loads of peak torque is about boost. What I'm doing at high rpm can only be done with flash tuning, it's a combination of a few things and a large part of it is VANOS tuning. Enjoy your day.

 

[UpNcOmiNg!]

That's a great looking graph.
Are the Turbo's still running efficiently enough to hold the power that high up for a sustained period?

 

[M3_devil]

Howzit gents.

To answer your question the car feels strong all way to red line with this himalaya:rollsmile: map.

Beauty of this new map is that it increased the racing band in that I now have more rpms in each gear. On the road you definitely feel the difference at top. Besides who races below 3500rpm anyway.

Since I'm only running 15psi heat soak is less of an issue vs cars running higher psi.

thanks

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

"Kish, where is the wheel power dyno? Chiplogic reads Engine power. For all we know he's making the same power as you. I can't do this without a wheel power dyno graph."

JP's car will make 400wkw on any dyno any day. Altitude tune means that it's allergic to Salt:=): And guys please don't bring in religion.

HE actually makes around 350kw. 400 flywheel kw (as printed on the graph below) with 50kw drivetrain loss (also shown on graph below)

so Kish, he is making maybe 20kw more than you and the manual has totally different rations and a final drive not suited to drag racing. So yeah makes sense that he only traps a couple of clicks above you.

simple physics, if you added 50kw to your car your exit will have to go up. This isn't about trying to catch me out or disprove me.

 

[bmsportzn135i]

You guys have made me so famous with this thread...:coolShake:

 

[S1NGH 911]

You guys have made me so famous with this thread...:coolShake:

I want your autograph JP :roflol:

 

[bmsportzn135i]

You guys have made me so famous with this thread...:coolShake:

I want your autograph JP :roflol:

With the way this thread is going so viral, you'd be able to sell the autogragh on ebay.

 

[Kimeran]

I just hope we are not doing Dyno Tuning here:fencelook: 16-17Psi = 300wkw's with only HW being Dp's, you are good. So at the Coast you say we can add another 10%? BMSPORT if you not busy let's get your car over to Stealth btw there is an open dyno day at Stealth HQ, 21 Dec let's run our cars there and if the attitude guys sorry altitude guys are already here on holiday please join us. Eish, Silly Season started early. Just joking gents have a great day.

If I'm in Durban by then, I'll join :thumbs:

 

[Dean ///M]

So Sherwin on which dyno must we run our cars so that is a true wkw reading here in Durban?