Xcede 135i, 238kw at Snail software only!

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
Well I did some fine-tuning on Voodoo's car & finally got the chance to go test a small change I made from 5500rpm. Car made 238kw on pump fuel with no hardware. ZERO hardware.

Now I have been tuning the N54 engine since May 2007. So that's 3 years of experience with this engine at altitude. So let me cast my analytical mind on this graph and maybe George can jump in if he agree/disagree's.

1stly, the torque is low. And peak torque is DIRECTLY proportional to boost (all things being equal), on this engine. So it's pretty obvious the boost is low. 0.9bar to be exact, or only 0.2 bar above stock up here.

This car made 188kw at Snail stock. So the gain was exactly 50wheel kw. 50 killerwhales with s/w only! 50 of them! unbelievable, what a dream of an engine! So this is exactly what you want. The most power gain, with the least boost increase.

So we have established that the boost is low. Timing is dependant on the octane as the N54 has a very advanced & reactive timing control system. It will run the max advance it can for the given octane. So the extra power is not from boost or timing. At altitude with a car with no hardware, you have to come up with other ways of maximising airflow at high rpm when the turbos start falling flat on their face. And it has nothing to do with boost. And unfortunately, these controls are instructed directly from within maps in the ECU. Piggies can't control them. Piggies intercept the Crank angle sensor to phase timing, the factory 02 sensors to bias them for fuelling, and of course attenuate the MAP sensor to control boost.

All other functions cannot be touched by piggies. Running more boost may well be enough at sea-level where the turbo's have enough "spare capacity" to boost more reasonable efficiently. But it's not gonna' cut it up here. Here you need to manipulate more variables in the map to try to get the engine breathing better once you past the midrange boost. Now that is on a car with no hardware. If the car has hardware, then you can crank the boost and make more power as the duty cycle on the wastegate does go down when you throw hardware at the car.

But now we on the right track, I believe we can get the N54 to around 245kw at Snail s/w only. Will go back soon to try hit that mark.

Voodoo.jpg
 
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anile8-zn

Guest
And the duration of the runs ?
Why is the more powerful run so much slower ?
I know what u are gonna say but accurate testing would be much better .
How much less power do your ordinary maps for the 135 make?
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
anile8-zn said:
And the duration of the runs ?
Why is the more powerful run so much slower ?
I know what u are gonna say but accurate testing would be much better .
How much less power do your ordinary maps for the 135 make?

This is the ordinary maps they will all gain the same.

Anile8, you are very surely painting yourself into a corner and I think you may well regret this further down the line (no that's not a threat BTW). What do you mean by "more accurate testing". Please explain. Snail and KAR are well established and respected companies for independent testing. Rian did the dyno'd himself. What's wrong with the testing?

On the duration, issue please stop using the same cr@p I showed you to act like you know something. You know nothing & yet you carry on like an expert. Allow me to prove to you that you know nothing.

Look between 1500-2000rpm. The new run is lacking way behind. And that's why the duration is much longer. So why? Why is this new file so CRAP below 2000. Is the tuning so drastically detrimental at low revs that the car cannot accelerate? What bull is this? Xcede is not doing accurate testing as they tuned the car off boost to be so slow. Dam them!

But wait! This is an auto car! If you floor it at low revs it kicks down. So the dyno operator part throttles it up to 3000rpm to prevent it kicking down on the dyno. That's why you see the one run much slower than the next. It depends on how much throttle the operator decides to give up tp 3000rpm. Once you hit 3000, then his foot is flat as it won't kick down anymore.

So Anile8, please. I prefer if you don't post in our threads. You add no value as your points are totally invalid as anyone with half a brain knows you have to part throttle an auto car on the dyno at low revs.
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
clutchplate said:
come now okes .. play nice here..

No it's all good. I'm just posting graphs from my customers showing legitimate gains.

BTW, Gert Vorster's sister's 135 also made 238kw at SNai s/w only. So this is the 2nd one. I have the graph from her. But hey if I post another legitimare graph from a customer I will get criticised again. I don't know what else I need to do.
 
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anile8-zn

Guest
U should operate dyno then u could run the files at the exact same throttle . How's that
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
anile8-zn said:
U should operate dyno then u could run the files at the exact same throttle . How's that

What for? Who cares? All that matters is the power. The owner's don't care about the duration, they know the operator is part throttling it at low revs.
 

Scouse

Active member
Sherwin@Xcede said:
anile8-zn said:
U should operate dyno then u could run the files at the exact same throttle . How's that

What for? Who cares? All that matters is the power. The owner's don't care about the duration, they know the operator is part throttling it at low revs.

Yup, and Riaan at snails has done many auto's and knows exactly how to do it
He has done a few on mine :)
 

STREETRACER

Active member
Wow Bud nice gains! :thumbsup: I.M.O the loss in Bottom end torque and higher low end Kw will make Launching easier!

The duration of a run has nothing to do with power or gains! Because you have to pull away in 1st gear to get the rollers runnig before you put the car in 3rd or 4th for the run! Always compare the power between ranges! Looking at the duration will mislead you!


Im not looking for a fight here but a healty debate is welcome! I agree Piggys will not But DASTEK will..
The Ecu is just the brains talking to all the other components! The UniQ is just a tool to get wat the ECU says and then alter the Values that goes out! When the chip is wired in it can alter any values or voltages going out to any sensor, solenoid etc.. when a signal wire is clamped by the uniQ chip the ECU will still get the same readings back doesnt matter what your output is on the chip!

Ill get some more info on the N54 and Q chip from oom Pieter him self!
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
STREETRACER said:
Im not looking for a fight here but a healty debate is welcome! I agree Piggys will not But DASTEK will..
The Ecu is just the brains talking to all the other components! The UniQ is just a tool to get wat the ECU says and then alter the Values that goes out! When the chip is wired in it can alter any values or voltages going out to any sensor, solenoid etc.. when a signal wire is clamped by the uniQ chip the ECU will still get the same readings back doesnt matter what your output is on the chip!

Ill get some more info on the N54 and Q chip from oom Pieter him self!

This is a great discussion, maybe we must start a new thread. I was tuning piggies for a few years and I have some experience with them. They offer some advantages over flash tuning. The ability to switch maps on the fly can be a great advantage. And there are a few more.

But the controls you speak of are limited. How many digital & analog I/O pairs on the Dastek? The ones I used to use had 4 each. You need a pair to intercept the MAP, the 02, etc. If you want to defeat the speed limiter you need to use a couple of I/O's as the speed signal goes to a few control units (DSC, ABS etc).

So after you are done you are intercepting CAS, MAP, and 02. How do you control VANOS? And if it's valvetronic, how does a piggy intercept that? Do they use a digital or analog I/O if they want to control VANOS? VANOS isn't something you can intercept and map in a piggy table.

So yeah, you can intercept and manipulate a couple of signals with a box of variable resistors (which is what the Dastek is), and you may get some decent results. I know because I got great power with the piggy on my 335. But the ECU has thousands of maps and you can't go install thousands of wires to intecept all of them. There will always be some maps you can't manipulate with a piggy.
 

clutchplate

///Member
I know this is off topic.. but hey..

Sherwin ! I'm busy doing some things to my car and I just wanna know..
to what extent can you guys tune the Bosch ME7.2 DME which comes in the E39 540i '99-'03 models..
or do you guys simply use dastek uni-Q for tuning ?

just trying to figure out some options for different tuning setups.. busy stroking my engine and doing a BUNCH of things internally..
I wanted to tune the stock DME to be able to run it without any outside electronics for example ...
 

Baracus

New member
Sherwin@Xcede said:
Timing is dependant on the octane as the N54 has a very advanced & reactive timing control system. It will run the max advance it can for the given octane. So the extra power is not from boost or timing. At altitude with a car with no hardware, you have to come up with other ways of maximising airflow at high rpm when the turbos start falling flat on their face. And it has nothing to do with boost. And unfortunately, these controls are instructed directly from within maps in the ECU. Piggies can't control them. Piggies intercept the Crank angle sensor to phase timing, the factory 02 sensors to bias them for fuelling, and of course attenuate the MAP sensor to control boost.

All other functions cannot be touched by piggies. Running more boost may well be enough at sea-level where the turbo's have enough "spare capacity" to boost more reasonable efficiently. But it's not gonna' cut it up here. Here you need to manipulate more variables in the map to try to get the engine breathing better once you past the midrange boost.
Thanks for this info Sherwin, very informative. Might explain why I'm seeing a dip in power after 5200 rpms:thinker:? However have recently installed new firmware & settings for the JB3 and power definitely seems a little bit better up top now, will have to make it to Snail again sometime soon

135iJB3Dyno.jpg
 

STREETRACER

Active member
Ill wait for oom Pieters reply and post that as i only have so many answers!


Check The way you guys map software i dont have any problems with! Its a perfect map for each car! But alot of guys out there just writes maps and load it to all that type cars! And you and me know you can have 2 100% exact cars and not one will make the same power! There is no better tuning than life tuning never the less what sort of tuning you use flash or piggy!

Ill keep you up to date on oom pieters reply!
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
STREETRACER said:
Ill wait for oom Pieters reply and post that as i only have so many answers!


Check The way you guys map software i dont have any problems with! Its a perfect map for each car! But alot of guys out there just writes maps and load it to all that type cars! And you and me know you can have 2 100% exact cars and not one will make the same power! There is no better tuning than life tuning never the less what sort of tuning you use flash or piggy!

Ill keep you up to date on oom pieters reply!

Ok sure, that will be interesting. We all here to learn.

Baracus said:
Thanks for this info Sherwin, very informative. Might explain why I'm seeing a dip in power after 5200 rpms:thinker:? However have recently installed new firmware & settings for the JB3 and power definitely seems a little bit better up top now, will have to make it to Snail again sometime soon

135iJB3Dyno.jpg

Ok sure. Looks like re-active knock retard from too much boost. Those settings might work if you have an intercooler or downpipes. On a car with no hardware, it might be too much boost and/or timing. Can you adjust it down? Maybe go to the dyno and try a few settings. Sometimes you will find the car will make more power with less boost.
 

STREETRACER

Active member
Hey Sherwin Oom Pieter said you never stated exactly what function you tune or manipulate! What exactly is it that you altered or tuned which you meant piggys cant!
Here is a attached file he sent me!

The UNICHIP gives a properly trained mechanic control over the timing and mixture functions of most electronically controlled engines. Not only can mixtures and timing be set, but also it can be set under various load and RPM conditions. This gives one the ability to optimise the engine for economy under light load conditions and set it up for optimum performance under full-throttle conditions.

The Unichip is a professional system and is installed and programmed by professional tuners.

The Unichip can be programmed with up to 5 different sets of user selectable maps for different conditions or choices. As an example, one map can be configured as an immobiliser map; another might be set up to lower the RPM or speed limiter if the vehicle is sent for service or lent to someone. Another might be set up for high boost (if it is a turbocharged engine) to have fun on track days etc.

The UNICHIP is much more than just a "chip". In actual fact it is a fully functioning computer that is added to the engine’s existing engine control unit (ECU). Apart from controlling general timing and mixtures it can do idling control, drive extra injectors, do various forms of boost control, eliminate road-speed governors, calibrate speedometers, fully control nitrous and water injection, create road-speed governors, raise or lower the rev limiter on most engines etc. It can be best described as a "Piggyback" computer.

The UNICHIP gets wired into the existing ECU harness. If it is removed the engine is back to standard. Unlike other after-market units if the UNICHIP is programmed with zeros the engine will be standard. Only areas where the engine isn’t perfect need to be altered. For many applications U-Connect plug and play harnesses are available giving you the ability to add or remove the Unichip system as you wish.

The main difference between other after-market "chips" and the UNICHIP is that with the UNICHIP every individual engine is optimised. It is not just a chip that was made on one particular engine and then gets used on other similar engines.

The Unichip can normally work on new model vehicles long before any other form of chipping or serial download becomes available.

Other chips or serial downloads can’t give you the choice between different maps, they can’t create immobilizer maps or governed maps if you take your vehicle for a service or loan it to someone.

Other chips or serial downloads can’t be transferred from one vehicle to the other. With the version Q Unichip the chances are more than 95% that it could be fitted on your next vehicle as well. Because the firmware can be upgraded on the Unichip it can be updated in the future to suit new models.

If you take your vehicle for servicing at the original dealers they can very easily (and very possibly) erase the modified serial download and replace it with an “updated” standard version of the program. A modified serial download can very easily be detected by the factory scan tools. To date we haven’t see one case where the factory scan tools could detect the Unichip.

The Unichip can be programmed “real time” whereas serial downloads and other chips are simply a program that is downloaded to the ECU. The best artists in the world all make their own painting! They don’t print copies of other artists’ paintings.

With the Unichip you can own an original optimised map system for your vehicle.

Power, economy, efficiency, performance, fine-tuning, polished, perfection, tweaked, improved and optimised; all words that go well with a Unichip!
 

George Smooth

///Member
I am not sure why people make such a fuss about the run times of dynos. Anile8 the timer starts once the dyno operator presses the start button on the dyno. He can sit for a year on the same rpm prior to him putting his foot down and starting the run, it is not a timing device which measures the rate the roller speed increases even though that is the way the dyno calculates the power.

As for the 238wkw well done Excede, this is about the limit of what the car can do on pump fuel safely with longevity and stable output in mind. You should call this file finalstage1.
 
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anile8-zn

Guest
Just giving sherwin a taste of his own medicine. He tried to degrade the frc gains on my old 335 based on the run time.
 

Voodoo//M

New member
anile8-zn said:
Just giving sherwin a taste of his own medicine. He tried to degrade the frc gains on my old 335 based on the run time.

Hey Oscar well done on your run with Xcede 135

I am down in Durban next weekend, we can test standing start 1km on the toll.
 
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