discussion State of SA and Emigration

[Kish2604]

So i just found this thread now, admittedly most of us have been a bit busy the last 7 days... Some posters here are at the end of their tether and some are still positive.

The challenges and destruction we faced in the last 7 days makes for a bleak reading whoever you are. It will make you sell your shit and want to go anywhere out of this hole we in. However if you were boots on the ground at the front lines of your community and witnessed the "GEES" that was as tangible as the smoke in the air then you would put your roots even deeper.

A few things happened which we seem to overlook,
1. The insurgents who planned this attack had the intention of a coup d'etat, destabilise government and install a new regime.
2. They had no control of the masses who took the looting to level 99.
3. The police forces were slow to react due to political lines drawn in the camps.

While this all happened the communities who had the wherewithal to protect their property banded together, set up perimeter lines, primary and secondary defenses, and this was manned by people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds. People came together not because of race but because of ethics. The end result was the looters were stopped in their tracks and could not advance any further. The instigators learned quickly that the public at large will not tolerate this any more, the politicians learned that communities will stand up for their own - Dont test their resolve!

As far as my point of view on leaving SA, i will stay and fight as long as there are people willing to fight with me, its not a lost cause... its not all doom and gloom, We as Saffers are resilient! We will rebuild and come out stronger than before.

Racism is rife in the world, Look at black lives matter movement as an example, leaving SA for another country will make little difference, the battles are still the same fundamentally, it just wears a different look. Crime is rife in the world, it just takes different forms. Crooked politicians are right up at the top of first world country's, many people seem to have forgotten that Trump incited violence when he was voted out of presidency and got masses of his supporters to storm the white house? So yes, issues in SA are not only endemic to SA and what are you really escaping? Look at how diverse SA has become over the last decade with nationals out of Africa coming here to work, people of middle east, Pakistani and Indian descent as well. This country has so much going for it.... its time for good governance to make it work.

Lastly, If you still want to leave, then by all means, pack your stuff and leave but do not spread your negative mindset to those who still want to save the ship (regardless of how far down it has sunk) and put wind in its sails. We wont think any less of you, make your descision and stick to your guns but dont go looking for support in others to validate your fears. Ultimately we are the guardians of our democracy, not politicians... We must now hold people who are in the position of power accountable for their misdeeds and their lack of decisive actions. The power is now in the people more than ever before!

PS. Thank you to the communities of GP who rallied to find stocks of food at short notice. They know who they are and may they receive the highest blessing from the lord above. I can tell you from being on the front line of food distribution that it went to the most affected communities, there was no segregation of race and religion or if you were looting 24h before that.

 

[922-ZN]

So i just found this thread now, admittedly most of us have been a bit busy the last 7 days... Some posters here are at the end of their tether and some are still positive.

The challenges and destruction we faced in the last 7 days makes for a bleak reading whoever you are. It will make you sell your shit and want to go anywhere out of this hole we in. However if you were boots on the ground at the front lines of your community and witnessed the "GEES" that was as tangible as the smoke in the air then you would put your roots even deeper.

A few things happened which we seem to overlook,
1. The insurgents who planned this attack had the intention of a coup d'etat, destabilise government and install a new regime.
2. They had no control of the masses who took the looting to level 99.
3. The police forces were slow to react due to political lines drawn in the camps.

While this all happened the communities who had the wherewithal to protect their property banded together, set up perimeter lines, primary and secondary defenses, and this was manned by people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds. People came together not because of race but because of ethics. The end result was the looters were stopped in their tracks and could not advance any further. The instigators learned quickly that the public at large will not tolerate this any more, the politicians learned that communities will stand up for their own - Dont test their resolve!

As far as my point of view on leaving SA, i will stay and fight as long as there are people willing to fight with me, its not a lost cause... its not all doom and gloom, We as Saffers are resilient! We will rebuild and come out stronger than before.

Racism is rife in the world, Look at black lives matter movement as an example, leaving SA for another country will make little difference, the battles are still the same fundamentally, it just wears a different look. Crime is rife in the world, it just takes different forms. Crooked politicians are right up at the top of first world country's, many people seem to have forgotten that Trump incited violence when he was voted out of presidency and got masses of his supporters to storm the white house? So yes, issues in SA are not only endemic to SA and what are you really escaping? Look at how diverse SA has become over the last decade with nationals out of Africa coming here to work, people of middle east, Pakistani and Indian descent as well. This country has so much going for it.... its time for good governance to make it work.

Lastly, If you still want to leave, then by all means, pack your stuff and leave but do not spread your negative mindset to those who still want to save the ship (regardless of how far down it has sunk) and put wind in its sails. We wont think any less of you, make your descision and stick to your guns but dont go looking for support in others to validate your fears. Ultimately we are the guardians of our democracy, not politicians... We must now hold people who are in the position of power accountable for their misdeeds and their lack of decisive actions. The power is now in the people more than ever before!

PS. Thank you to the communities of GP who rallied to find stocks of food at short notice. They know who they are and may they receive the highest blessing from the lord above. I can tell you from being on the front line of food distribution that it went to the most affected communities, there was no segregation of race and religion or if you were looting 24h before that.

Amen, couldn't have said it better.
A lot of the fear mongers and nay sayers that are ready to jump ship, fail to see what it is that makes South Africa what it is, not Table Mountain, not flashy Sandton, Umhlanga or the beaches, it's the people. Each to their own, leave, don't leave, just make a positive contribution to the country if you choose to(or have to) stay.
People who spread panic while they're planning to leave are just looking for company to make them feel better about their decision and if you're doing that, then deep down, you know leaving isn't the answer(at this point at least) IMHO.

Myself, things would have to be on a PROPER downward spiral into a sh!t storm of epic proportions(in my eyes at least) to make me leave.

 

[1 Eyed Monkey]

This thread is thought provoking.

I have always wanted to move to Lesotho and have a guest house for South African 4x4 enthusiast and bikers that side, and Im working on the capital for that. Lets see what the next 2 years have in store

 

[GoCart]

I'm sure the intent of the discussion was not to offend, seek supporters and / or followers and certainly not to disrupt the harmony of this ecosystem.

Certainly, movements like Action SA has me filled with hopes and dreams of returning home one day, but at the moment I can't put a price on the safety I enjoy, so my view remains.

Regardless, my gratitude to those who joined the cause and stood up against the trouble makers, you are all heroes, I mean that genially !!

 

[jayaynikkal]

+1 for Action SA

 

[StrollingCoal]

So just under 2 years, corruption charges and multiple load shedding stages later..it might a good time to revive this thread. Given the current state of our country, is emigrating still an option on the table?

Personally, should I get an opportunity that makes it worth I'd gladly leave despite being in hell of a patriot.

 

[TurboLlew]

LOL the last time I contributed to this thread it was not well received... to say the least.

 

[Benji]

I have always had a lot of hope for SA and have continued to root myself here. The problems we have are not unique to us. Look at the energy crisis in Europe and inflation everywhere else. Asia (China, India, Pakistan) are also going through some tough times now. However, this "new" information that has come out regarding Eskom has really taken the wind out my sinking ships sails. Is there still hope? YES, I believe so. We need to activate ourselves to galvanize the change we want to see in our country. This can be something as simple as encouraging all the non-voters in your sphere of influence to vote. I believe that if all the "I complain but dont vote" people can actually vote, we will see change in SA.

There is a lot of untapped potential in the private sector who is willing to invest, create jobs etc if the government would just allow it to. We have amazing skills, infrastructure, resources and people here - the potential in SA is huge keeping in mind it will take a few years to fix.

Having said all that, the day the ANC and EFF form a coalition to obtain a majority in 2024, is the day that I start looking abroad. I don't think there will be any coming back from that mess, at least not in our lifetimes.

 

[TBP88]

LOL the last time I contributed to this thread it was not well received... to say the least.

I just browsed it again - fair to say the whole thread is now incoherent. LMAO.

I look back and feel... Almost exactly the same, maybe with more confidence I could go overseas having gotten a proper offer (incle support for moving over) from a blue chip company in the Netherlands.

Realistically I do still think of leaving. It might not be tomorrow but I do suspect in the next 3-4 years it'll be harder to justify staying.

 

[MR_Y]

Working in scenario planning, I can tell you that things are going to get worse. Total grid collapse is becoming more likely. Civil unrest could follow on a larger scale than the July 2021 KZN riots.

The communist/socialist ideology of the ruling party is outdated and will limit our investment destination potential to mainly Russia and China. With China walking up from its COVID lockdowns, commodity prices will increase and SA should benefit. But, with Transnet and our ports in a poor state, mining companies will struggle to get the commodities out reliably to satisfy that demand.

The Europeans are moving back to coal, given the gas shortages they have from the Russian/Ukraine war's impact on supply. Again SA is well poised to make a ton of money from selling our coal, but the Richards Bay terminal and the rail route there are both in need of proper maintenance and management. Again, the mining companies are left helpless.

Our economy will struggle to grow given the ineptitude of the government. While corruption is also a factor to our decline, it is actually the incompetence of government departments that is more concerning.

Do we leave SA? It will be difficult for us over a certain age to easily emigrate, but our kids will need to go overseas to find greener pastures.

Invest in upskilling your kids and preparing them for a first world country and career.

 

[TurboLlew]

I think this is like discussing evolution or the earth being round sometimes. There is an impossible and moving target to acknowledge what rock bottom really is. There is such a thing as 'toxic positivity' as well as stockholm syndrome. That rhetoric of "shut up and contribute" needs to end... we have had 30 years of it now... It is "shut up and fill the feeding trough". Even when we have a collapsed power grid people will say there is potential and those complaining should just have been less poor and sorted themselves out (and higher stages are going to be published soon it seems despite government saying it would be 'stage 2 for 2 years - no trust us really').

There are people lurking on this forum that are also part of the problems we see around us. I am not even speculating. They are benefitting from the messes that you see and can be 'touched' by you pointing their chowing out.

Anyway that is all I have to say about that... Ultimately in the past 3 years or so particularly, I think anyone who has a functioning brain and eyes has at least made their plan B (and C and D).

My wife now works location-free for a multinational company... and none of her projects are anywhere close to SA. There are a number of people we have come across with similar work arrangements. This is a good thing if it is possible for you since you have less stress relocating at short notice and keeping the lights on wherever you go. This is the #1 concern I guess everyone has when considering leaving these days.

As Benji points out there is no shortage of corruption or issues in many other countries (and certainly the ones that are 'easier' to relocate to). If there was no potential here nobody would be here, but at the same time, the trajectory is not a positive one. Those 'few years to fix' have turned into 'few decades to fix'. Personally we could no longer put off 'life' as it were and had to invest in eg larger property etc and the next 'window' as with most people with kids (short of a disaster) is when they either finish primary school or finish high school. If you are single or are a couple, I am not sure what would keep you in SA at this point unless you were sufficiently 'monied' to continue self providing and investing in band aids for the government's/SOE's failures. There are POCKETS of good. There are POCKETS of excellence - floating in a sea of growing corruption and incompetence.

Getting people to vote is one thing. Who they vote for as the alternative is another... living with the DA is like living with someone who is suffering from both a superiority complex as well as a victim complex. They apparently have all the answers, but then also have a million answers for why they do nothing when voted in. I would almost rather have a corrupt ANC that delivers than an equally corrupt and hilariously incompetent DA (outside of the WC admittedly) that passes the buck at this point. When eventually the time comes and a credible opposition emerges, there is also the ease at which the 30+ million people living under very poor conditions can be convenient set 'against' the people who 'have' by the government as has been the case in so many countries already (even the US/EU/other western countries). Those same people that stayed to try to keep the lights on, that contributed tax, that built businesses and contributed positively all these years will be to 'blame'.

 

[TBP88]

Ironically I think there's a huge mismatch between guys in CPT vs guys in JHB/rest of SA. As much as I think the DA are immensely politically inept, the truth is local governance in CPT has been pretty decent (by and large) and especially if you live in a middle class area protected from the worst excesses of crime and poverty.

JHB just has a feel of truly collapsing, the deterioration over the last 5yrs is alarming, even just 2yrs ago it was still fun to visit.

But for sure, at this point the only things keeping me in SA are my family (particularly aging parents) and partner. Failing that I'd likely have left when I got the offer I did a year ago.

 

[Spanky]

True about the WC/CPT mismatch with the rest of SA. To me, it honestly feels like the last stand for the country.

Being from North-West originally, but semi-grating 10 years ago, the rot up there is so astounding it beggars belief.

 

[///Avi]

I think the Eskom disaster has to have opened the eyes of the strongest believers now. A grid collapse will be catastrophic. Expect looting and violence. It is what it is.

I understand many people who have built businesses instead of acquiring a qualification would find it harder to leave if they haven’t built up the capital already and prefer to have this country turn the corner and start working again and I feel for them. That hope must be deteriorating now if you aren’t in a line of business that will thrive here.
I’ve been in two minds for a very long time but recently feel slightly trapped with properties, cars and business here now. Do I sell what I can at a loss and make every attempt to get out of here is what I ask myself.

Honestly, I feel like being the last ones to realize that it’s time to leave means the movement options wither away and that’s probably why it’s been on my mind so much recently. I feel it’s already too late.

Many already know that the life you will have abroad does not provide the same luxuries as here because of the cost of living. For us non-whites we’re still going to deal with racism like we do here. I’ve experienced it on my travels already.

But there will be working infrastructure, safety and even opportunity for our kids in a developed country. It’s something to work toward.

 

[///Avi]

True about the WC/CPT mismatch with the rest of SA. To me, it honestly feels like the last stand for the country.

Being from North-West originally, but semi-grating 10 years ago, the rot up there is so astounding it beggars belief.

I’ve seen that so many white people have chosen to semi-grate to WP. Obviously not knowing your ethnicity, I do believe it is a “safer” haven for racists still. I call it the Australia of South Africa 😂.

I lived there for 2 years and what an awful experience. Just everyday interactions were difficult. White capetonians think they’re being subtle to straight up racial slurs😅. My wife mainly had the worst of it but circumstances with work meant we left to come back to JHB.

However this is probably not everyone’s experience in Cape Town, it was just my personal experiences and obviously not all white Capetonians are racists.

The DA works well in the more middle class to affluent neighborhoods but in my time there, 2019-2020, there was civil unrest in the areas near milnerton and table view.

So not completely insulated from the realities and inequalities of SA. The rot will arrive maybe just a little later. It’s just a band aid to be moving to WP and not out of SA eventually. We’ve learnt that the hard way unfortunately.

 

[individj]

its a bit complicated though...most of the folk living Dunoon side are from the Eastern Cape and actually living illegally on Prasa land now too....my friend owns the farm opp the road and its just crazy currently...people are living right next to the road and are starting to attack commuters ...they've also burnt a lot of the MyCiti infrastructure to the point where its not going to be used. They have also burnt down the library...they are from other provinces and living there illegally and are demanding services...just a small side note...also look at specific wards and the councillors. On another note...don't move to the Western Cape! its racist and sh!t and expensive its not worth it!

 

[ibs.patel]

Rwanda: The jewel of Africa

Rwanda: The jewel of Africa

www.newsday.co.zw

 

[Benji]

Reviving an old thread here...I recently visited the Cape, spent a week there, drove about 600km between cape point, northern and southern suburbs all the way past Strand to Pringle bay and I counted 4 potholes in total...this is in stark contrast to the 9 potholes in the 5km I drive to work in Fourways - one of the better areas in JHB. I have periodically visited the WC over the years, but never has it been such a stark contrast; at times I was convinced I was in another country. In no particular order, relevance or importance:

• Working trains/busses/public transport
• Cycle/bus lanes
• Newly surfaced streets and lack of potholes, working street lights in outlying areas
• Generally maintained/cleaned pavements, gutters and grass along roads
• As a car nerd - prominence of classic and exotic cars out and about
• Synchronized traffic lights - somehow I found I was always moving there, in JHB, you drive one block at a time...

The above may not be enough reason for any political affiliation, but for me, it points towards a more organized and efficient structure which may not be the best in the world, but certainly proves they are much better than the current national administration. I have had very little hope for SA, but after my visit there, I certainly have more hope for the rest of the country.

 

[TBP88]

Reviving an old thread here...I recently visited the Cape, spent a week there, drove about 600km between cape point, northern and southern suburbs all the way past Strand to Pringle bay and I counted 4 potholes in total...this is in stark contrast to the 9 potholes in the 5km I drive to work in Fourways - one of the better areas in JHB. I have periodically visited the WC over the years, but never has it been such a stark contrast; at times I was convinced I was in another country. In no particular order, relevance or importance:

• Working trains/busses/public transport
• Cycle/bus lanes
• Newly surfaced streets and lack of potholes, working street lights in outlying areas
• Generally maintained/cleaned pavements, gutters and grass along roads
• As a car nerd - prominence of classic and exotic cars out and about

The above may not be enough reason for any political affiliation, but for me, it points towards a more organized and efficient structure which may not be the best in the world, but certainly proves they are much better than the current national administration. I have had very little hope for SA, but after my visit there, I certainly have more hope for the rest of the country.

Yeah, for sure better. The trains sadly have completely fallen apart.

I used the train as my to and from transport to work as a young professional - granted I always left work at 530 in winter to avoid being on the trains/at the station after dark and it was efficient, generally worked and was ok.

Nobody I know now uses the trains on a regular basis because of how often there are issues. The MyCiti - if you can use it, is fantastic though. A reasonably wide network (goes all the way up to atlantis for instance) and is relatively cheap and efficient. As well as safe and clean. Some stops have been destroyed, likely by hoodlums linked to taxi associations - sad scenes.

Having also been doing the reverse of you the last 4 or so years the difference literally has become more and more stark. JHB slowly seems more and more decript over time while CPT *if you can afford it* gets better and better. Pity about CPT housing costs!!!

 

[zabbo]

Having said all that, the day the ANC and EFF form a coalition to obtain a majority in 2024, is the day that I start looking abroad. I don't think there will be any coming back from that mess, at least not in our lifetimes.

I think you should start prepping your bags!!

How is this for a scenario post the 2024 elections - ANC and EFF are the ruling coalition government. ANC has kicked Uncle Cyril out and the new President of the country is Paul Mashitile with his buddy Julius Malema as the Vice-President of South Africa.
Land reforms and SOE bailouts the order of the day ....... where would that leave the working middle class