discussion State of SA and Emigration

[Veedub]

We just returned from a holiday in Singapore. I would go live there at the drop of a hat. We walked around the city center at 23H00, with phone in hand (using google maps) with not even so much as someone looking our way. A lady was walking her dog. The dog took a crap on the pavement. The owner bagged the poop and then used a wet wipe to clean the pavement . We felt safe. Woman (and young girls) walking around at night on their own. Taking public transport on their own, to go to school or work. Everyone moving with phone in hand.

It depressed me, as SA is just completely stuffed. Couple weeks back, went to McD's in Waterfall. They had a guy outside warning customers not to walk with their phones in hand, cause they had a few instances of phone grabbing. Was checking Twitter while on holiday. Murders, kidnappings, robberies, assault. Every single day in Jhb. We no longer wear any jewelry. Hundreds of Thousands of Rands worth of watches and jewelry is just sitting in the safe. Saw an awesome Omega in Singapore that I really wanted. Had to just pull away, cause I can only wear it inside my house. We cannot buy any cars that align to our income, for fear of becoming a kidnapping target. Same goes for clothes. I'm now just buying generic pick n pay stuff.

I used to be positive about SA, but experiencing Singapore has just shown me how bad it is here.

We are now considering sending my daughter to study there, once she completes high school, because no woman deserves to live with the risks like in SA.

Oh, we met some ladies on tour. They said that the U.S. and London are just as bad. In New York, the ladies keep their jewelry in their handbags until they get to work. They no longer buy designer bags or clothes, so as not to attract attention.

 

[TurboLlew]

Singapore is great to visit. Living there culture wise is another story - there are definitely pros and cons like everywhere else. I have a friend that's lived there for 10+ years. Parts of the US and London are indeed REALLY bad - as bad if not worse than SA (again from family/friends living there).

Tertiary education abroad is a must for anyone with kids at this point.

 

[DHimself]

At this point it feels like the safest place to live would be somewhere in the Emirates (Ts and Cs apply), or, like, Switzerland.

 

[Benji]

Each country has its problems, pros and cons. We have an amazing standard of living in SA if you are part of the top 5%. Look at USA and the violence in schools etc. Europe has not been growing in terms of GDP for over 10 years now. Crime in any large capital city is generally a problem. Southern Europe and their looming pension crisis. The east and its general lack of freedom and looming political unrest. Not to mention the language barriers these places pose to us. Switzerland is prohibitively expensive...

 

[Eust]

I travel extensively and we spoilt in SA as long as you living in SA and not on SA. The material quality of life for the "average" person is way above what you will see in any western country.
However, we are socially inept/irresponsible from a Governement perspective and that will brew a civil war. That's the issue here. Things get harder for more people, more crime and people get fed up.
A few fundamentals change in SA and the ZAR goes to R10 to the $ easy, things carry on with the current trajectory and we at R30.

 

[Eust]

At this point it feels like the safest place to live would be somewhere in the Emirates (Ts and Cs apply), or, like, Switzerland.

I work for a Swiss company......unless you have made Bank somewhere or are at a very senior level on a listed company.......good luck.

 

[tman]

I travel extensively and we spoilt in SA as long as you living in SA and not on SA. The material quality of life for the "average" person is way above what you will see in any western country.
.

I don't agree at all.

SA has a shrinking middle class / "average person"

How do you define quality of life?

Political stability, Work Security, family safety, international travel, access to disposable income?

I have many "middle class" assosiates in the UK. Most drive Teslas and go to the EU 3-4 times a year on holiday. With a MASSIVE safety net an minimal stress on a day to day basis.

In SA you can beat this but not as an average person at all. You need to be in the top 5% at least. And that's not saying much.

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[TurboLlew]

I don't agree at all.

SA has a shrinking middle class / "average person"

How do you define quality of life?

Political stability, Work Security, family safety, international travel, access to disposable income?

I have many "middle class" assosiates in the UK. Most drive Teslas and go to the EU 3-4 times a year on holiday. With a MASSIVE safety net an minimal stress on a day to day basis.

In SA you can beat this but not as an average person at all. You need to be in the top 5% at least. And that's not saying much.

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Yes many on here are living in a very small bubble of that 5%, with the safety net of generational wealth. As soon as you can no longer afford to be in that bubble (as people are dropping out), you suddenly experience reality.

 

[TBP88]

I don't agree at all.

SA has a shrinking middle class / "average person"

How do you define quality of life?

Political stability, Work Security, family safety, international travel, access to disposable income?

I have many "middle class" assosiates in the UK. Most drive Teslas and go to the EU 3-4 times a year on holiday. With a MASSIVE safety net an minimal stress on a day to day basis.

In SA you can beat this but not as an average person at all. You need to be in the top 5% at least. And that's not saying much.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

I think this all depends on defining "average".

For most middle class people, the truth is that the SA life quality is unattainable elsewhere. You can't afford a maid in most of the 1st world unless you're in the top 0.1%, whereas in SA 95% of working professionals have some sort of cleaner coming to help in the house. Same with childcare. Same with going to a top end restaurant. Even in CPT - R1k is enough for dinner for 2 in a *great* food joint with a few glasses of decent local wine.

That's just about enough for a publunch in most of the UK.

These are all things we can access in SA for relatively cheap. Add to that low cost of alcohol, relatively lenient laws around driving in general (in Germany you can lose your *car* license for cycling drunk...) and and. For sure there are big upsides to SA if you're in that top 10% or so of income earners, with a stable job and some money saved up you're cushy here in a way you may well not be in most developed countries.

 

[Eust]

I don't agree at all.

SA has a shrinking middle class / "average person"

How do you define quality of life?

Political stability, Work Security, family safety, international travel, access to disposable income?

I have many "middle class" assosiates in the UK. Most drive Teslas and go to the EU 3-4 times a year on holiday. With a MASSIVE safety net an minimal stress on a day to day basis.

In SA you can beat this but not as an average person at all. You need to be in the top 5% at least. And that's not saying much.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

SA has a shrinking middle class, similarly to most of the western world.
Point I made is your material quality of life is higher here than there. If you work for an international company, what your peers would have in terms of houses, cars, going out for dinner 3,4 or 5 times a week here etc etc is not even comparable in my opinion, even with our rising cost of living.

You do realize flights within the EU costs them less than a JHB to CT flight so it doesn't show financial muscle, it's just accessibility, which is great and a benefit for the region. If you can have the same material quality of life and better overall quality of life (security, political stability etc) then not sure why you would be in SA?
The land of milk and honey (western europe) is a mess, with refugees from Eastern Europe and ME looking for opportunities there as well.
In SA, if you are living in SA and not on SA, you are better off materially. If you under, go to a socialist country that can support your school fees and medical aid etc etc etc, which will soon dry up with the economies the way they are globally and the burdens of grants, welfare etc.

 

[Eust]

I think this all depends on defining "average".

For most middle class people, the truth is that the SA life quality is unattainable elsewhere. You can't afford a maid in most of the 1st world unless you're in the top 0.1%, whereas in SA 95% of working professionals have some sort of cleaner coming to help in the house. Same with childcare. Same with going to a top end restaurant. Even in CPT - R1k is enough for dinner for 2 in a *great* food joint with a few glasses of decent local wine.

That's just about enough for a publunch in most of the UK.

These are all things we can access in SA for relatively cheap. Add to that low cost of alcohol, relatively lenient laws around driving in general (in Germany you can lose your *car* license for cycling drunk...) and and. For sure there are big upsides to SA if you're in that top 10% or so of income earners, with a stable job and some money saved up you're cushy here in a way you may well not be in most developed countries.

Exactly

 

[TurboLlew]

To live like for like in the UK, I'd have had to move with around R45M and also somehow become one of the top earners in the UK... unlikely. It sounds like hyperbole until you start writing things down. Probably even more needed now. I can see why South Africans would rather go and buy a nice place in Bishopscourt or Constantia and take their chances with the DA.

Comments are on the money in terms of the middle class person in SA without tens of millions of rands will never live a life like they live here in another country - not like for like anyway. That being said you are forever under assault as the middle class being responsible for tax, being portrayed as 'rich' by politicians and required to self provide for everything along the way. Even in the US when people call for taxing the rich are lumping people with a couple of hundred thousand dollars in with those who basically have limitless resources. Judging by how things appear or what people have to say about other places, it isn't much better for the middle class anywhere.

 

[tman]

relatively lenient laws around driving in general (in Germany you can lose your *car* license for cycling drunk...) and and.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel here. The ability to disregard laws and get away with committing crime should never be seen as having "a better quality of life". I would argue the opposite is true. Living in a country where laws are actually enforced will provide a better, safer quality of life for most.

 

[TBP88]

Scraping the bottom of the barrel here. The ability to disregard laws and get away with committing crime should never be seen as having "a better quality of life". I would argue the opposite is true. Living in a country where laws are actually enforced will provide a better, safer quality of life for most.

I'd say it's more about a cultural aspec than anything else. 99% of the car mods on this forum would not pass german TUV, for instance. Crossing an empty road without a green man earns a fine. I'd *FAR* rather live in a more lassaiz faire society than in such a regimented one - having spent considerable amounts of time in both.

Less about "you can get away with crime" and more "how petty is the nanny state".

 

[tman]

You do realize flights within the EU costs them less than a JHB to CT flight so it doesn't show financial muscle, it's just accessibility, which is great and a benefit for the region.

Referring to your post above: "The material quality of life for the "average" person is way above what you will see in any western country."

I never mentioned financial muscle, its seems you are moving the goalposts to your original argument of "quality of life" It doesn't matter if the flights cost R1 or R10 000 to be honest.

If you can have the same material quality of life and better overall quality of life (security, political stability etc) then not sure why you would be in SA?

I dont live in SA.

If you under, go to a socialist country that can support your school fees and medical aid etc etc etc, which will soon dry up with the economies the way they are globally and the burdens of grants, welfare etc.

The UK is a capitalist country country and we have free medical aid and school fees. I think if any monies are to dry up for frivolous grants ec (which I dont support) SA will stand 1st in liine.

 

[Eust]

Referring to your post above: "The material quality of life for the "average" person is way above what you will see in any western country."

I never mentioned financial muscle, its seems you are moving the goalposts to your original argument of "quality of life" It doesn't matter if the flights cost R1 or R10 000 to be honest.

I dont live in SA.

The UK is a capitalist country country and we have free medical aid and school fees. I think if any monies are to dry up for frivolous grants ec (which I dont support) SA will stand 1st in liine.

I was discussing MATERIAL quality of life, which is all about financial means. My initial and follow up mention MATERIAL quality of life.
"It doesn't matter if flights costs R1 or R10k" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Enjoy your UK material quality of life. I'm sure you killing it there in spite of the cost of living crisis.

 

[tman]

Retorting to insults in order to get your point across is a great way to win any argument.

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[individj]

i feel that emmigration is person dependent too. Personality...goal..,ability to adapt...people skills...its complicated...remember the early 2000's England 2 year stints ...so many struggled and so many thrived...

 

[Eust]

Retorting to insults in order to get your point across is a great way to win any argument.

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You are clearly very sensitive. Must be the great weather.

 

[Eust]

i feel that emmigration is person dependent too. Personality...goal..,ability to adapt...people skills...its complicated...remember the early 2000's England 2 year stints ...so many struggled and so many thrived...

💯 I know personally and like TurboLlew mentioned, the cost to move to a better country, is just not viable.
For me, I know I also won't all of a sudden become a top 0.1% earner in New York, London, Tokyo etc to have what I have here.
I gaurentee people that have a job like mine there, dont have an M3, M4, multiple houses in JHB and CT etc etc.
If the above is at stake, then of course you move as then you have less to cover/cater for and you don't need the R45M.