M60 Injectors - Thanks Rick

[zaleonardz]

Well, my E34 has been running rough since the day that I got it, like it is missing.

THe first week of owning it, I did all the plugs, and saw a plug not burning well.

Aside from compression issues, this can therefore only be coil pack, or injectors, more or less I suspect injectors.

Now trawling, guess what I found, this fantastic article about injectors for the M60 and M62, done by our very own Rick 540, which was a fantastic read.

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/720760

Rick, based on your research, looks like I am looking for Lucas style injectors, any clue on pricing/best place to get them from. They are pretty cheap on ebay, but perhaps I can source them locally.

It would also not make sense to just do one, if they are that cheap, I may do all 8.

It may make more sense to replace then to have them cleaned, and I have ran injector cleaner as well.

 

[rick540]

Hey you found my article :thumbsup:

I would suggest getting the original injectors cleaned... failing that...

Well I still have a two sets of Lucas, one of Bosch, and one of Bosch design III left over here....

 

[Uber Soldat]

I wouldn't mind replacing my injectors too. Had one fail and am waiting for the rest to follow. :bawling:

Rick, what sorta price we looking at? I've heard the bosch design III are good ones to go for...

 

[rick540]

Bosch design III are about $65 on Ebay $100 including shipping from the USA.

I'm currently running Design III in the M60, and they give the best fuel consumption and idle.

For power go for the Lucas

 

[zaleonardz]

I found the lucas style injectors for $15 each, which works out about R1,000 without shipping.

But I think I am going to have mine cleaned first and then see,

Thanks RIck

 

[Hellas]

What's the quote on the cleaning LZ?

Would you say that cleaning injectors (like the ones on my oiler) would be considered preventative maintenance or simply scratching where it don't itch?

 

[zaleonardz]

Hellas,

I have no idea just yet, I first have to figure out how to remove the fuel rail and send them in

I read an article on SAC's website about injector cleaning, and they estimate that regular cleaning will enhance the life, fuel consumption and blah blah of a motor, they recon its generally a good idea.

I had a Nissan Diesel service all 4 injectors the other day + calibrate the HPFP for like 1k, so I donno, I shall do some research first, and give my contacts a call.

It could still be a coil pack though, and the cables that I have doesnt talk properly to the E34, I can talk to the ABS, airbag and sunroof, but thats it... Guess I just might take it in for diagnostics.

RIck offered to build me a cable when he gets a gap.

Under normal conditions she runs fine, its just the idle that is rough but I wouldnt know re power, as I got her like that, its more then likely an injector.

I'll let you guys know how I come with pricing but if its like R800 or something daft, I may as well just import a set for like R1500 or something.

 

[///M_POW]

Ya, let us know what it costs to clean injectors...

I'm sure it will save lots of ppl lots of money.. :thumbsup:

How would u know if your injectors need cleaning ?

 

[zaleonardz]

Mpow, rough idling, decreased fuel economy, down on power, that sort of thing.

 

[rick540]

Re the cleaning, there is no way to "rebuild" an injector, so give the "rebuilt" ones a miss. All they can do is clean and replace pintle caps, but there is no actual way to get inside an injector to replace any internal parts.

 

[rick540]

I was just thinking about this misfire or lumpy idle issue that plagues the E34 and E32 M60's

I admit to spending three years trying to get rid of it, including new coil packs, injectors, M62 intake manifold upgrade, exhaust mods, manifold mods, swapping in countless known working parts, moving the CPS, messing with fuel pressure, compression checks, leak down checks and finally a full engine rebuild, and the damn thing still continued doing it. This perfect engine that wont idle properly... confused the Hell out of me.

A few months ago, I added some brain power to the mix and seriously looked into why the M62 (basically the same engine) is so well behaved compared to the M60. I looked at everything from BMEP to timing advance curves, exhaust back pressure, combustion chamber shapes and swirl characteristics and intake manifold design. The thing basically partially misfires due to very low intake vacuum and port velocities at idle causing bad mixing of air/fuel at low speeds.

Turns out to be camshaft timing, the M60 has a rather enthusiastic 28 degrees overlap compared to 14 degrees for the M62 and this seriously affects idle on this multivalve engine, in addition the PCV valve vents almost exclusively into cyl #8 by design (This was later fixed on the M62 by using a new venting pipe running right through the plenum with precisely sized appertures on the side).

I proved my theory by retarding the intake cams by 7 "camshaft" degrees or 14 crank degrees, and advancing the exhaust by about 4 cam/8 crank degrees. It now runs 9 degrees total overlap and is totally well behaved. (Jandre has driven it and commented it was quite smooth)

This has affected mid range power down a little but increased the power plenty between 4000 and 6500 rpm, and over all the engine is very well behaved and smooth running with a good idle now.

Problem with cam timing is it's a big compromise, all one really does is shuffle the existing power around the rev band, and I opted for high rev increases and smooth idle over midrange torque.

I quite like it this way, don't have to sit at traffic lights bouncing up and down in time to the engine rock like an idiot anymore.

 

[Danzellc]

I had the lucas injectors on my car and i changed them out for bosch units, my car idles smooth when cold but gains a very slight rocking when at working temp. i have heard the m60 has a gentle rocking normally and this makes sense when you hear Ricks info. I wonder why some m60's have lucas and others have bosch injectors? Apparently the pintle style injectors is more efficient compared to disc type injectors.

 

[rick540]

I also changed lucas for bosch pintle, then back to Lucas, then to Bosch design III

Lucas generally make crap, but their injectors are very good, and solid stainless steel right through, and have been described as a "work of art" by some injector guys.

The RC performance injectors are all rebadged Lucas disc, and an the later Lucas production all have a Delphi logo on them.

Pintle was invented in 1972, whereas all disc injectors are 90's vintage, and much more accurate than the pintle due to very accurate metering by the disc and very lightweight moving parts.

Each type has an advantage, but the Lucas give the M60 engine a nice midrange feel for some unknown reason.

Bosch design III give a fantastic idle quality.

 

[WerriesM5]

Wow lots of nice info!!!