Black box data

CreedBratton

New member
Does anyone know exactly what these black boxes are recording these days (speed, rpm, temps, environmental?), and how long it is stored?

I have read cases where someone was overtaking a car and happened to go slightly over the speed limit and crashed, and when the insurance company retrieved the black box data and refused to pay.

They claim some of these record for a couple of minutes and keeps overwriting the oldest data, and others activate when it's detecting a crash. Maybe some store the highest speeds?

Other functions are to store environmental and engine parameters to help diagnosing intermittent errors.

Who accesses this and when? The card has it's own sim as well so can in theory publish anything? or can only the dealers access this via the diagnostics port?

Hoping to get some clarity,

Thanks
 

lebofa

Active member
CreedBratton said:
Does anyone know exactly what these black boxes are recording these days (speed, rpm, temps, environmental?), and how long it is stored?

I have read cases where someone was overtaking a car and happened to go slightly over the speed limit and crashed, and when the insurance company retrieved the black box data and refused to pay.

They claim some of these record for a couple of minutes and keeps overwriting the oldest data, and others activate when it's detecting a crash. Maybe some store the highest speeds?

Other functions are to store environmental and engine parameters to help diagnosing intermittent errors.

Who accesses this and when? The card has it's own sim as well so can in theory publish anything? or can only the dealers access this via the diagnostics port?

Hoping to get some clarity,

Thanks
sorry to ask, are you talking about the tracking devices?
 

CreedBratton

New member
lebofa said:
CreedBratton said:
Does anyone know exactly what these black boxes are recording these days (speed, rpm, temps, environmental?), and how long it is stored?

I have read cases where someone was overtaking a car and happened to go slightly over the speed limit and crashed, and when the insurance company retrieved the black box data and refused to pay.

They claim some of these record for a couple of minutes and keeps overwriting the oldest data, and others activate when it's detecting a crash. Maybe some store the highest speeds?

Other functions are to store environmental and engine parameters to help diagnosing intermittent errors.

Who accesses this and when? The card has it's own sim as well so can in theory publish anything? or can only the dealers access this via the diagnostics port?

Hoping to get some clarity,

Thanks
sorry to ask, are you talking about the tracking devices?
I dont specifically have a GPS tracking device on my car like the ones the insurance company issues, I was just wondering about what comes with the car as std, since I have no clue. I just know it has something recording stuff constantly, might be for diagnostic or 'other' purposes.
 

MikeR

Well-known member
:thumbdo: I think some one is telling you stories mate...unless you are talking about your cessna.

As Lebofa mentioned it might be a tracking device and That I believe keeps continual record.
 

BadBoy23

New member
I only know of a skyline GTR that comes with something similar to a black box that records driving information that is used especially in the first 1000km to see how you drove in order to void warranty or not.
 

Rish///M

///Member
I think you are referring to the connected drive. I might be wrong. Car comes fitted with sim card and service info, etc is sent to the dealership. They contact you to book services. Not sure about speed, acceleration, etc. But I’m sure they can send diagnostics. Also used for concierge services.
 

momo1

Well-known member
This is interesting, I remember visiting Joburg City Auto last year , and while I was waiting for my car to be serviced I chatted to the salesman who mentioned this, apparently on new cars this will be used to deduce your mplan extension and payment thereof, it will also be used for when big ticket items are claimed from Mplan.
he mentioned data being extracted on over revving and hard breaking.. also on not wearing a seatbelt.
at first I really did think he was talking hogwash but Im also genuinely keen to know just how true and accurate this is..
 
I know back in the day they used to have these in my dad's company cars, he used to be a REP for Robertsons Spice and all the reps had these black boxes fitted to the cars, they moved from the Jetta CLi's to the 200IE 16v Astra's and then they put these black boxes in them, used to make a beeping noise if you rev'd it over 5000rpm or drove over 140km/h, and they would download the data like once a year..

that's my knowledge of a BLACK BOX
 

Fuzz123

Member
The new 640 Hilux has, dependend on the model, more than 16 ecu's and yes some of them record speed, braking etc.

So i think it is very possible that the newer generation german vehicles also have it at our spec level. I dont think it is a black box but rather the ecu.
:coolShake:
 

cOlDFuSiOn

New member
The new ECUs record a lot. I actually think Sir Ratslaaf might be able to shed some more light as he has benched these ECUs so know their capabilities.
 

Spiro

///Member
I've heard a similar thing about important data being logged.... not sure if it's over and above the diagnostics part...


when i once collected a car from BMW, i was told about usage of DSC... and each time the system is turned off it is "apparently" hard logged into some place... and in the event of accident they(insurance or bmw ) can refer to this information, but only if related to time of incident



could be total BS.... but then again , seeing that once case where the max rpm was logged in one of the fanatics V8 M3's on this fourm... i would hate to see these things creep out of the woodwork...


.

2 cents....


:=):



.
 

Ratslaaf

///Member
As Spiro said, even my '08 M3 has max RPM, number of redlines and time spent in redline, top speed, against the mileage and gear this happened, stored in the ECU. It's not part of standard diagnostics but is easily found in the logs.

So, if a 9 year old car has this, do you not think it's naive to not expect this on newer cars?

Ok, I've now said more than I should...
 

Blueskys

Member
If they did use the data you would have to sign some kind of waiver/disclaimer that they are entitled to log your useage of the vehicle and potentially use the data to void warranty. Or sell/share the data with 3rd parties like insurance, that aspect would have especially been mentioned in Europe where privacy laws are very tight, doubt it would be allowed without explicit consent from the car owner.

Whatever the case may be I think we'd know by now if they do use the data like that, that knowledge would have leaked from the BMW workshops and there'd be a couple of fuming fourm members with voided warranties.
 

Fruks

New member
Ratslaaf said:
As Spiro said, even my '08 M3 has max RPM, number of redlines and time spent in redline, top speed, against the mileage and gear this happened, stored in the ECU. It's not part of standard diagnostics but is easily found in the logs.

So, if a 9 year old car has this, do you not think it's naive to not expect this on newer cars?

Ok, I've now said more than I should...
why have u said more than u should? do you have some nda's in place preventing you from talking about it?
 

Ratslaaf

///Member
No NDA's, but I also don't want to open a hornets nest of debate around this issue. I cannot confirm or deny that a manufacturer would use this data in order to repudiate a claim - it's not my place to do so. Assuming that such data isn't available would be a mistake though.
 

Fruks

New member
Ratslaaf said:
No NDA's, but I also don't want to open a hornets nest of debate around this issue. I cannot confirm or deny that a manufacturer would use this data in order to repudiate a claim - it's not my place to do so. Assuming that such data isn't available would be a mistake though.

i see your point but maybe just list what can be logged and not discuss about claims ect. as that is not really important. i myself would like to know what is recorded for interest, not for any debates around it

thanks!
 

rsgordini

Active member
All info is logged and recorded...

Use it don't use it.. fact is if they (bmw) didn't want you to use the car to its full potential then they would put limiters in place...
Just be responsible and do it in a controlled environment..

Hopefully your insurance will not ask for such data...
Bmw can and will use it to not cover certain warranty claims if they believe that car was abused..

They send a special file to Germany and they get an answer on what to do..

This i know as mentioned before for the v8 e90 etc.. not sure if on all cars (320 320d ) but technology is definitely there...
 

CreedBratton

New member
I know that the ECU logs a lot of 'stuff' even on older cars I've had.

I've even been told they can easily see if your car was on a dyno because the ECU logs the fact that 2 of the wheels are moving and the others are stationary so the ECU thinks there is a problem.

But all this i have been told is for diagnostic purposes, by all the guys at BMW, and that when a fault is detected all of the environmental conditions are logged (rpm/speed/temps) etc to help diagnose the issue. Not as a tool to refute warranty or motorplan claims. For example why would they refute a claim because you hit the limiter? I mean the ZF 8 gearbox for example revs to 7k rpm automatically when in sport mode, even if you are not full throttle, so that wouldnt make sense.

The question around black box is more around continuous logging of driving, speed, GPS etc to use for other purposes and esp for insurance companies to find reasons to refute claims.

For example lets say you wanted to see what your car could do so you take it to a runway and drive flat out until you hit the top speed. You would be on a track so in a safe environment and are not breaking any laws, but black box data could indicate to the insurance company during a future incident that at some point you drove at such high speed, or bmw could via GPS see that you were on a track and if something breaks a month later it could be refuted due to driver abuse, since you were on a track and even if it is just a single run to take your car to the top end, it could be automatically seen as abuse no matter how you drive it.

What if you wanted to learn how do drive your car more safely so you take an advance driving course, the course would be conducted on a track for obvious reasons, but now you have no insurance and no warranty due to GPS logs etc.

I know that while you are on track if you crash on a track then insurance wont pay, and usually stipulates such exclusions, but even if an incident is not related black box data can indicate you were there previously, as apposed to only be excluded if you crashed at the track.

I have even heard that if you go watch a racing event at killarney drive your car there as a spectator, if someone bumps your car in the parking lot you have to tow it somewhere else or insurance wont pay since they would now suspect you were racing on a track. I dont even know if for some reason your car broke down while watching racing at killarney warranty or motorplan can refute the claim, perhaps :=):

I dont know all this, and even though ive never taken any of my cars to the track due to these kinds of concerns as well as not wanting to drive my cars quite that hard, it is a shame that in order to reduce people driving too fast on public roads the system (insurance, warranty) is designed to prevent you from driving your car fast in a safe environment.

I have considered to take an advanced drivers course, but am hesitant due to insurance and warranty, which is also a shame then since this all ads to actually driving safer and get yourself out of sticky situations more easily.

Anyway I guess we will never really know unless someone had this happen to them can report, or someone working at the tech department of BMW,

If i take my paranoia hat of for a second and think logically it doesnt make sense for BMW to be out to just get you or look for reasons to refute claims as the news would spread and the car enthusiasts will start looking elsewhere, and they would be aware of this. I think they would also have to mention this to you a bit more clearly, as someone mentioned privacy and all that, its not in their best interest to secretly do all this without mentioning it at least, I would think?
 
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