Am I being ripped off guys ? Help please

[bmwforlife]

Hi guys being a bit of a mechanical retard I need some info from you guys as to whether I am being ripped off or not .

My 540im had a bit of an ever present oil leak so I took it to 3 Services Independent BMW Specialists in Brackenfell.

Now the origin of the oil leak after much searching was found to be and I am quoting " one of the oil channels was improperly welded so it must be welded again'on the outside of the engine block .

The original quote for the job was about between 4-5k before they knew the origin of the leak and was for removal of the gearbox as well since it seemed to be leaking there .

So I am called and asked to come check the damage and told that the least laborious job would be to weld it and that it must go to an aliminium welder to do the job which I okay .

This was about 6 weeks ago so each week I pop in and am told next week there will be feedback .Importantly each time I pop in I use a different car depending upon my mood ranging from the M5 to the 645 .

So yesterday I pop in with the M5 and am told that the welding is done and it will take about a week to do fitment since they are fitting it in . I am also told that the cost for the aliminium welding is R5500 .

Isnt that a bit steep or don't I know my arse from my elbow ? If I add the original bill of about 6-7k to this we are looking at about 13k for fixing an oil leak at a very leisurely pace because they have had the car about 7 weeks .

What do you guys think ? Does anyone have experience with these guys ? I smell a rat but dont want to go guns blazing unless I have my facts straight

All assistance will be much appreciated .Oh ja no parts were purchased or replaced any time during this little procedure and the engine was removed but obviously not opened .

Thanks:thumbs:

 

[m20boy]

sounds cheesy like a what a rat eats ,

what costs 5k , the fault finding ? or the labor and finding the fault ?

i dont think they had to remanufacture a whole gearbox so why would such a small little weld cost that much ,mmmm i smell a rat.

 

[Philip Foglar]

My advice, speak to Rick!! He had an E39 540i and would be able to shed some light on this!! :thumbs:

 

[Sabretooth tiger]

+1 on Rick, he will be able to tell you best. Also Gizmo is a bit far from you, but will also shed a lot of light on it for you.:thumbs:

 

[zaleonardz]

The cost of the welding and materials required is virtually nothing.

At most your looking at like R500 an hour for a seriously skilled guy.

Taking out the motor, ok fine, 2k, 3k if the guy is nuts...

I think your being played bud.

 

[bmwforlife]

Yeah remember the charge for removing the engine is part of the mechanics bill however the welder never removed the engine it was out hence my consternation at the cost . I think I will ask him for an invoice from the welding firm and call them to find out what the hell

The cost of the welding and materials required is virtually nothing.

At most your looking at like R500 an hour for a seriously skilled guy.

Taking out the motor, ok fine, 2k, 3k if the guy is nuts...

I think your being played bud.

 

[Raybimmer]

Aluminium welding is expensive so this guy is now obviously making hay while the sun shines .
Unfortunately you do not have pics of the oil leak , was one of the heads taken off and welding done on the top face of the block or was welding done on the side of the block ?

IMHO the bill is exagerated .

 

[Wick-ed]

:facepalm:

 

[Ga-3M]

Bud for a bit of welding that seems ridiculous!! For the welding I'd say max R2k and thats still being a bit over calculating! Not to sure on the labour charge for the rest of the job but to me R6K all together would be reasonable!

 

[bmwforlife]

Hi thanks for the response

Welding was on the bottom side of the block

Aluminium welding is expensive so this guy is now obviously making hay while the sun shines .
Unfortunately you do not have pics of the oil leak , was one of the heads taken off and welding done on the top face of the block or was welding done on the side of the block ?

IMHO the bill is exagerated .

 

[Psymon69]

I took my E30 to them back when I still had the 323. They are not the cheapest by a long shot, but this seems a bit much.

I had a clutch kit fitted to my car there because the release bearing was busy going. Then after a week of driving my gears started to grind and turns out my box was leaking oil meaning bye bye gearbox. They never even saw the little hole in the box (speedbump or who knows what caused it) and then I had to pay again (labour to AGAIN take out box) for a new box and fitment by the old bruces bmw.

They do good work and they are knowledgeable, so maybe all adds up once youve seen an itemised invoice of all work done. It does seem excessive though to fix an oil leak so I fully understand why you would be worried, I would be to. goodluck:thumbs:

 

[Peter@AEW]

The pipe you are reffering to is on the left hand side of the block.
although the welding needs to be done carefully the amount of R5 000 for the welding job alone is excessive by any means.

I would expect a maximum of R1500 and that would be a generous amount.

I strongly propose that you alert them to the fact that you wish to speak to the "welder" as jobs sub contracted you have the option of settling outside the normal bill.

Please do not allow them to ride you like this.:nonono:

 

[moranor@axis]

I can weld aluminium... while its not easy compared to welding other metals its not the hardest job in the world...

agree the price is inflated... 5k for the whole job not 5k just for welding... they putting a huge markup on the welding for sure...

 

[bmwforlife]

Right so I have received the bill from Three Services and this is what it says;

Customer instructions:
Service
Oil leaks

Subtotal for service :1367.32

Repairs:
1)Remove gearbox to check for oil leak
remove fly wheeland loosen
sump fit two new sump gaskets
and new rear oil seal,remove
starter from engine and find oil
channel to be cracked R2100

Strip and remove engine and send
to welder .Reattach and put in and road test R2450

Remove tappet covers and fit new gasket R1400

Welding R 5500

Parts
sump plug R3,00
hose clamp R18,00
2x Micro Filters R976,92
Rear Crankshaft
Seal R 634,20
2x Tappet cover
Gaskets R 1056,00
Rear Gaskit R 62,98
Sump Gaskit R 481,83
Bottom sump
gaskit R 410,77
Exhaust Gaskit R 409,05
L/side Engine
Mounting R 1200,00
Clutch slave
Cylinder R 1068,79

total plus vat R 21869,07

the total from a mathematical sense is incorrect it should be R 20 798

but dont you guys think this is just a tad excessive ?

I asked for all invoices for the goods purchased and replaced as well as the welders invoice . Dont mind approaching the High court for a mandamus if he refuses but will get a costs order against him for wasted costs .Stupid man:thumbdo:

 

[rick540]

I went down this road with the exact same problem on my E39 540i.

I know about this problem VERY well, and have experienced trying to fix it first hand.

It cost me (at the end of the day) R52000 all in with the engine being removed 5 times at BMW labour rates, paying for diagnosis, they took so long I bought another car in the interim, and then the welding broke again , the welding was R 1400 for the second attempt, with the first guy/attempt costing R2200 (For failed welding through BMW and I had no choice but to pay)

I have my theories as to the real cause, but the bottom line is the block wasnt "improperly welded" that sounds like bullshit as the block is cast and not welded at all, unless somebody welded it post - production.

The M62 engine has oil feed channels from the engine block to the head drilled on two axis. The channel runs down the lower outer side of the engine, and then up the back of the block on both sides, one for each bank.

The horizontal "drill entry hole" is then plugged with a taper threaded or threaded steel plug that if overtightened causes a metal fatgue crack to start at the plug and spread outwards across one of the high pressure oil feeds on the back of the block. (basically cracking a section of the engine block off, around the starter as well)

The other cause can be related to improper fittment of the transmission locating lugs. When the bolts are tightened, the lug if not aligned properly squashes and cracks the block near the starter and again the crack spreads across a high pressure oil feed.

IMHO this is not an unknown problem to BMW, it is not common but in my case the one mechanic mentioned he had seen this on a few X5's too. It is either manufacturing or labour related. In my case I even approached Dr David Klatzow the forensic investigator, we decided we could most likely prove the case of manufacturing defect on mine, but costs would be prohibative to do so and BMW would fight it tooth and nail, so I gave up and took the knock.

Can you send me a pic of what they welded? The way I understand it is that to weld it properly they need to heat the entire block to a few hundred degrees, and for that they need to strip it. if this was not done the repair will likely just crack again.

This engine block is cast from hypereutectic aluminium alloy, it is impregnated with a vast quantity of silicon (around 17% sand) and welding it sucessfully is very rare. (this is not your average aluminium)

Sorry to hear about this, it sucks

 

[pi328]

If this is the same one I saw there, I believe service provider #1 broke off one of the mounts of the starter motor, or whatever is sitting to the left of where the gearbox mounts to the engine. They then told him: no worries, we'll get it welded back, which they then did, but only from the one side (the back). This is what bmwforlife was referring to in terms of "improperly welded". Either way, during this welding process, they broke something else and the engine started leaking oil. And this is when service provider #2 was approached to find the source of the leak.

 

[rick540]

If this is the same one I saw there, I believe service provider #1 broke off one of the mounts of the starter motor, or whatever is sitting to the left of where the gearbox mounts to the engine. They then told him: no worries, we'll get it welded back, which they then did, but only from the one side (the back). This is what bmwforlife was referring to in terms of "improperly welded". Either way, during this welding process, they broke something else and the engine started leaking oil. And this is when service provider #2 was approached to find the source of the leak.

The mount was very likely cracked before service provider # 1 "discovered" it thats why I would like to see a picture, the cause could have been much older and from a different source than recent repair attempts.

 

[bmwforlife]

Some feedback guys it's been three days and no response as of yet to my letter . So I am filing my notice of motion today , getting a case number at the High Court and serving papers on these chaps . Am also praying for costs on the attorney client scale these chaps are being vexatious by not giving me the invoices . Oh well war it is then . Will keep you guys updated and when I get my order have this post moved to the proper sub forum .... The name and shame area .

 

[Rayzor]

:bravo: dont let them get away with this.

 

[telegamer]

give em hell.....alll you have been asking for is a little transparencey wrt how they arrived at the total bill