E46 ///M advice

hi to all M3 owners out there.
I would like to know as a few other fanatics out there that after finding a clean E46 M3[I want one] ,do I tell the seller he/she should drop the price by approximately r30 gees ,because I will have to change the bearings for peace of mind ... it would not be nice squaring up to a turbo hatch at the intersection and before you hooked 4th gear your race is over because of a conrod poking through the block .Now it seems as if the next M ie E92 suffers the same fate. What do I replace my M3 E36 with , I have now started looking at AUDI S4 [B7 V8 ] and even MERC c32 AMGs which seem to offer good bang for your buck in relation to what it cost to buy a e46 M3 at the moment. Does anybody know if those V8 quatrro audies of the same era [2003 -2006] give any bearing or other motor problems. Another thought struck my mind , did those Ms with bearing knock issues have the correct amount of oil in them when the problem occurred .I am of opinion that maybe one should not just worry about what brand of oil be used but also is the sump filled everytime you go drive , which with most of these car is usually on the fast side.
My e36 M had a substantial mechanical repair /restore in 2010 when my friend owned the car with me sitting with the slips adding to r62 g .I actually covered less than 20 000 k since I owned it after the repairs .So do I keep my car and just admire the later models from a distance or buy that AUDI S4 instead , cant afford to keep my M and another performance car.

cato3 said:

hi to all M3 owners out there.
I would like to know as a few other fanatics out there that after finding a clean E46 M3[I want one] ,do I tell the seller he/she should drop the price by approximately r30 gees ,because I will have to change the bearings for peace of mind ... it would not be nice squaring up to a turbo hatch at the intersection and before you hooked 4th gear your race is over because of a conrod poking through the block .Now it seems as if the next M ie E92 suffers the same fate. What do I replace my M3 E36 with , I have now started looking at AUDI S4 [B7 V8 ] and even MERC c32 AMGs which seem to offer good bang for your buck in relation to what it cost to buy a e46 M3 at the moment. Does anybody know if those V8 quatrro audies of the same era [2003 -2006] give any bearing or other motor problems. Another thought struck my mind , did those Ms with bearing knock issues have the correct amount of oil in them when the problem occurred .I am of opinion that maybe one should not just worry about what brand of oil be used but also is the sump filled everytime you go drive , which with most of these car is usually on the fast side.
My e36 M had a substantial mechanical repair /restore in 2010 when my friend owned the car with me sitting with the slips adding to r62 g .I actually covered less than 20 000 k since I owned it after the repairs .So do I keep my car and just admire the later models from a distance or buy that AUDI S4 instead , cant afford to keep my M and another performance car.

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Once you open up that motor, it'll never be the same again.... Your best bet is to draw an oil sample and send it in for analysis to tell you if the bearings are wearing out (they analyse the oil and look for foreign particles in the oil). This will tell you if an M is healthy or not so healthy, and should help you make your decision easier.

The S4 is a good car, at a very low price at the moment. Have you asked yourself why? 30k for a bearing replacement on an M might sound steep (30k sounds far too cheap though?) but how does 50k on a DSG repair sound when the box goes bang (hence the lower asking price currently)

If you want a good M car, pay a good M car price for one that has full service history and that has seen regular oil changes. The bearings on these cars don't fail because they're faulty, they fail because routine maintenance isn't carried out - IE checking oil regularly and doing frequent oil changes.


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cato3 said:

hi to all M3 owners out there.
I would like to know as a few other fanatics out there that after finding a clean E46 M3[I want one] ,do I tell the seller he/she should drop the price by approximately r30 gees ,because I will have to change the bearings for peace of mind ... it would not be nice squaring up to a turbo hatch at the intersection and before you hooked 4th gear your race is over because of a conrod poking through the block .Now it seems as if the next M ie E92 suffers the same fate. What do I replace my M3 E36 with , I have now started looking at AUDI S4 [B7 V8 ] and even MERC c32 AMGs which seem to offer good bang for your buck in relation to what it cost to buy a e46 M3 at the moment. Does anybody know if those V8 quatrro audies of the same era [2003 -2006] give any bearing or other motor problems. Another thought struck my mind , did those Ms with bearing knock issues have the correct amount of oil in them when the problem occurred .I am of opinion that maybe one should not just worry about what brand of oil be used but also is the sump filled everytime you go drive , which with most of these car is usually on the fast side.
My e36 M had a substantial mechanical repair /restore in 2010 when my friend owned the car with me sitting with the slips adding to r62 g .I actually covered less than 20 000 k since I owned it after the repairs .So do I keep my car and just admire the later models from a distance or buy that AUDI S4 instead , cant afford to keep my M and another performance car.

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Gosh, there are a lot of questions to answer here. I'll try.

Firstly, clean, well looked after m3s are in demand, and the supply has really started to dwindle. It's hard to find a well looked after m3, and that's why prices have started to push up a little. Unfortunately, given this market scenario, as a buyer you have little room to negotiate as you often faced with little choice in the market. It's difficult to argue to a seller of a clean car that they need to drop their price because of the risk of rod bearing failure in the future, rather it is up to you to do your horn work and factor that into your budget for ownership of the car. By the same toeing I am not advocating that you over pay for an m3, you just need gauge where the Market is at for a clean example, and then consider rather fact that you have a couple of big ticket items that need taking care of:
Vanos lockdown
Valve clearance adjustment
Rear subframe repair or reinforcement
Rod bearings

The above are simply a reality of owning a used m3, and as long as there are buyers out there for used m3s, the comparatively low supply of cars on the market means you sort of have to pay the market price for car provided it is fundamentally clean.

It is sort of irrelevant to make comparisons to other cars of the same generation such a c32 and s4. These cars are cheaper because there is less demand for it, and they will have their fair share of expensive maintenance risk items as well, but I suspect neither of them are nearly as rewarding in terms of driving experience as an m3.

It sounds like you are lucky enough to be the benefactor of a previous owners diligent maintenance efforts on your e36 m3. If you are not willing to invest a similar amount on an e46 m3, then my suggestion is to keep your e36 and enjoy it. An e46 m3 is wonderful car, but it needs a lot of money beyond the purchase price to be a risk free. Personally I believe an e46 m3 is in a different universe to a c32 or Audi s4. That however, is my opinion.


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If an e46 M3 is what you lust after, then start with a clean example and as others have mentioned, do your homework on the car and be prepared to sort out the "known issues" from the word go.

A C32/55 is going to do nothing for you in terms of driver enjoyment and S4's of that era were very "nose heavy".

Well said Adis

Fuzz@TheDynamikProject said:

Once you open up that motor, it'll never be the same again.... Your best bet is to draw an oil sample and send it in for analysis to tell you if the bearings are wearing out (they analyse the oil and look for foreign particles in the oil). This will tell you if an M is healthy or not so healthy, and should help you make your decision easier.

The S4 is a good car, at a very low price at the moment. Have you asked yourself why? 30k for a bearing replacement on an M might sound steep (30k sounds far too cheap though?) but how does 50k on a DSG repair sound when the box goes bang (hence the lower asking price currently)

If you want a good M car, pay a good M car price for one that has full service history and that has seen regular oil changes. The bearings on these cars don't fail because they're faulty, they fail because routine maintenance isn't carried out - IE checking oil regularly and doing frequent oil changes.


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Sorry but you are wrong....even a good example can die due to bearing failure! And an oil sample is also not hhelping, nobody is able to determine when your bearings are gone. We tried to find it out in Germany (I know around 300 guys driving all kinds of M3)....nothing can tell you early enough if your bearings will fail, except: Open the engine and check the bearings!

P.S.: The chance to get a good engine increases if the owner never went on high revs, allowed it to heat up and cool down if driven hard and changed the oil every 10.000km....but even than we had engines that got damaged before 100,000km....my sources: My own M3 (E30, E36,E46, E92), BMW Club Germany and the M-Forum....

AndreasSA said:

Fuzz@TheDynamikProject said:

Once you open up that motor, it'll never be the same again.... Your best bet is to draw an oil sample and send it in for analysis to tell you if the bearings are wearing out (they analyse the oil and look for foreign particles in the oil). This will tell you if an M is healthy or not so healthy, and should help you make your decision easier.

The S4 is a good car, at a very low price at the moment. Have you asked yourself why? 30k for a bearing replacement on an M might sound steep (30k sounds far too cheap though?) but how does 50k on a DSG repair sound when the box goes bang (hence the lower asking price currently)

If you want a good M car, pay a good M car price for one that has full service history and that has seen regular oil changes. The bearings on these cars don't fail because they're faulty, they fail because routine maintenance isn't carried out - IE checking oil regularly and doing frequent oil changes.


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Click to expand...

Sorry but you are wrong....even a good example can die due to bearing failure! And an oil sample is also not hhelping, nobody is able to determine when your bearings are gone. We tried to find it out in Germany (I know around 300 guys driving all kinds of M3)....nothing can tell you early enough if your bearings will fail, except: Open the engine and check the bearings!

P.S.: The chance to get a good engine increases if the owner never went on high revs, allowed it to heat up and cool down if driven hard and changed the oil every 10.000km....but even than we had engines that got damaged before 100,000km....my sources: My own M3 (E30, E36,E46, E92), BMW Club Germany and the M-Forum....

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If that's your experience sir, then by all means

I'm stating my experience too, also from owning M cars in various iterations.

PS from a reliability engineering point of view, oil sampling is an industry standard on detecting out of spec motor wear, so I'm not saying that you're incorrect, but if various industries base many of their maintenance procedures around this analysis, then I'm sure it cannot be an inaccurate science either.


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I think maybe the point is that while inferences can be made from oil analysis, it is by no means a fool proof method of predicting rod bearing failure.

AdiS said:

I think maybe the point is that while inferences can be made from oil analysis, it is by no means a fool proof method of predicting rod bearing failure.

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This is agreed and noted. However, I'd say it is a lot easier to look at an historical oil sample analysis trend than open up an engine to take a look at the bearing wear. It's more an indicator than an out and out tool to discover what's going to happen down the line. It's basically a snapshot of what's going on the inside to know whether the car is in fact healthy or a heartbreak waiting to happen.

Granted, if you don't take care of your car with longevity in mind, it's going to break irrespective. The point I'm putting across is that if you're going to buy a car from a person who was very meticulous in their day to day maintenance of their car, chances are that the engine will be in good nick, and that's the car one should lean towards buying.


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Oil analysis was predominantly done for heavy machinery and trucks.

A history would be created for each machine and various items would be recorded.

Ongoing oil analysis would be compared to historical data.

In the case of a car without having that recorded history no matter what analysis is sough or done it is unlikely to tell you of imminent destruction be it on bearings or anywhere else.

cato3 said:

hi to all M3 owners out there.
I would like to know as a few other fanatics out there that after finding a clean E46 M3[I want one] ,do I tell the seller he/she should drop the price by approximately r30 gees ,because I will have to change the bearings for peace of mind ... it would not be nice squaring up to a turbo hatch at the intersection and before you hooked 4th gear your race is over because of a conrod poking through the block .Now it seems as if the next M ie E92 suffers the same fate. What do I replace my M3 E36 with , I have now started looking at AUDI S4 [B7 V8 ] and even MERC c32 AMGs which seem to offer good bang for your buck in relation to what it cost to buy a e46 M3 at the moment. Does anybody know if those V8 quatrro audies of the same era [2003 -2006] give any bearing or other motor problems. Another thought struck my mind , did those Ms with bearing knock issues have the correct amount of oil in them when the problem occurred .I am of opinion that maybe one should not just worry about what brand of oil be used but also is the sump filled everytime you go drive , which with most of these car is usually on the fast side.
My e36 M had a substantial mechanical repair /restore in 2010 when my friend owned the car with me sitting with the slips adding to r62 g .I actually covered less than 20 000 k since I owned it after the repairs .So do I keep my car and just admire the later models from a distance or buy that AUDI S4 instead , cant afford to keep my M and another performance car.

Click to expand...

I was also looking at an S4 as an option for a daily not too long ago. I love that 4.2 V8 but they also have their faults.

The car is well built and its a wonderful place to find yourself in. The cabin is grown up, plush and high speed stability is superb.

The quattro I feel is it's strong point and weakness. It gives you safety but lacks the hooning ability of a rear wheel drive car. That alone is enough to be a deal breaker.

The car in stock form is way too subtle to enjoy (comparing to a M3) I also drove a very nice black one that had a decat exhaust fitted. It still lacked soul. The free revving nature of the S54 and the sound the engine and exhaust makes is unrivaled. It is the most provocative experience money can buy at that price range.

Unless you can find V10 M5 or M6 for similar money I can't see the c32 or S4 competing.

Good luck with your hunt.

Fuzz@TheDynamikProject said:

If that's your experience sir, then by all means

I'm stating my experience too, also from owning M cars in various iterations.

PS from a reliability engineering point of view, oil sampling is an industry standard on detecting out of spec motor wear, so I'm not saying that you're incorrect, but if various industries base many of their maintenance procedures around this analysis, then I'm sure it cannot be an inaccurate science either.


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You are completely right, I am working in an industry where oil samples are frequently taken! Problem is that cars are different...and oil is changed frequently! If you just hit the point where the wear and tear is starting on your bearing you are the lucky one! It's like having the jackpot in lottery....our experience is that the bearings are gone too quick to recognise it...and than it's done...

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a1exander said:

Oil analysis was predominantly done for heavy machinery and trucks.

A history would be created for each machine and various items would be recorded.

Ongoing oil analysis would be compared to historical data.

In the case of a car without having that recorded history no matter what analysis is sough or done it is unlikely to tell you of imminent destruction be it on bearings or anywhere else.

Click to expand...

That's right Peter! We also did it during the lifetime of an engine....a very expensive challenge in germany (new bearings after 80,000km is a lot cheaper!!!) and not really reliable for a car....

hmm , I think that newer model M3 purchase is going to be more a one of the heart and not the head , cnat drive a performance car slowly just to prevent it going boom .The strange thing is the fastest car I was driven in [indicated 280kph ] was a white e46 M3 [are white ones faster] with over 190 000 on the clock and the car was not a very neat example of the breed at the time , but did that car go . I have never been in any e90 M at that speed , all of them stopped on the limiters at about 260 ish .
To throw a spanner in the works what problems can I expect with the SMG version , there is a very good example with documented history [and it is white ] that I can buy for what I consider a good price against similar condition manual with higher milage , this car actually just clocked 130 000 with two previous owners who don't seem as if they ever done over 120 km/h with the car.
Is there any preventative maintenance measures on these SMG s , because I noticed that they seem to always going into limp mode when dragged at Killarney 1/4 mile street to strip.
Another thing is who in Cape Town can do a bearing job on these cars except Zeemax and the franchised dealers.

Hum.

S4's. Lovely cars at the cost, horrilbe in GP. And do yourself a favour read up on that particular models timing chain issues. It's a engine out job and massively expensive to sort, not to mention hard to find a skilled person in that particular models intricacies.

C32 well think of it as the E60 m5 of the mercedes range. It's a unreliable heap of nonsense, very fast when working but the other 90% of the time it has some electronic issue. The C55 is improved but it offers a different kind of thrill than the M3.

As for oil testing. It has some benefits but at most it will tell you something is wearing, not what is wearing.

Jus great guys,you derailed my favourite S54 engine building thread :RedNo:

The 4.2 V8 engines of the Audi has timing chain issues.

Its an engine out affair to rectify and just as risky if left unattended as bearings on the S54.

I would go for the C55 if you want reliability.

To those who say the C55 is boring, I am pretty sure 90% of those people have never actually driven one. I like them, and would seriously consider buying one in the future. The C32 is plagued with all sorts of issues

Fordkoppie said:

The 4.2 V8 engines of the Audi has timing chain issues.

Its an engine out affair to rectify and just as risky if left unattended as bearings on the S54.

I would go for the C55 if you want reliability.

To those who say the C55 is boring, I am pretty sure 90% of those people have never actually driven one. I like them, and would seriously consider buying one in the future.

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Or never really turned off all the nannies.

Tehwalleth said:

Fordkoppie said:

The 4.2 V8 engines of the Audi has timing chain issues.

Its an engine out affair to rectify and just as risky if left unattended as bearings on the S54.

I would go for the C55 if you want reliability.

To those who say the C55 is boring, I am pretty sure 90% of those people have never actually driven one. I like them, and would seriously consider buying one in the future.

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Or never really turned off all the nannies.

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the c55 is fun…wasn't aware of the audi issue..thats sucks….people here are going to hate this but i really love the e46 m3 & if i were to get 1 it would have a 2jz under the hood:sorry:

individj said:

Tehwalleth said:

Fordkoppie said:

The 4.2 V8 engines of the Audi has timing chain issues.

Its an engine out affair to rectify and just as risky if left unattended as bearings on the S54.

I would go for the C55 if you want reliability.

To those who say the C55 is boring, I am pretty sure 90% of those people have never actually driven one. I like them, and would seriously consider buying one in the future.

Click to expand...

Or never really turned off all the nannies.

Click to expand...

the c55 is fun…wasn't aware of the audi issue..thats sucks….people here are going to hate this but i really love the e46 m3 & if i were to get 1 it would have a 2jz under the hood:sorry:

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Once again what is the point then?!!:hammerhead: The engine in an E46 M is one of the main aspects that makes the car!! Go buy a GT86 or Corolla and put your 2jz in there!:coolShake:

Ga-3M said:

individj said:

Tehwalleth said:

Fordkoppie said:

The 4.2 V8 engines of the Audi has timing chain issues.

Its an engine out affair to rectify and just as risky if left unattended as bearings on the S54.

I would go for the C55 if you want reliability.

To those who say the C55 is boring, I am pretty sure 90% of those people have never actually driven one. I like them, and would seriously consider buying one in the future.

Click to expand...

Or never really turned off all the nannies.

Click to expand...

the c55 is fun…wasn't aware of the audi issue..thats sucks….people here are going to hate this but i really love the e46 m3 & if i were to get 1 it would have a 2jz under the hood:sorry:

Click to expand...

Once again what is the point then?!!:hammerhead: The engine in an E46 M is one of the main aspects that makes the car!! Go buy a GT86 or Corolla and put your 2jz in there!:coolShake:

Click to expand...

it is fantastic..i really enjoy it..the whole car is but i am not going to buy a M3 & then spend R30k plus to do bearings because it will break..so i will have a great car with a good motor