Video: M3 (G80) vs RS5 at the Highveld

TBP88

Well-known member
Yeah we can compare the price of an M3 or RS5 to a Porsche, in terms of "buck per performance" and the Porsche wins hands down, but in terms of "buck for practicality" there is nothing better than a family saloon that rivals purpose built sport cars. I'm sure that is how many people justify the spend. Why buy two vehicles, a sports car and family car, when you can buy one with a little bit of best of both worlds.
Disagree somewhat. Sure if you want to daily drive a R2m+ car you're welcome to but the 911 will be as comfy, has an equally good interior and ride quality and maybe has 30mm less rear legroom. Sure you can't cart 2 18yr olds in the back, but a pair of small kids on a school run in the back of a 911 is no issue.

Either way if you held a gun to my head and FORCED me to buy a hot saloon I'd get a Giulia QV, R500k less than a new M3, far rarer and prettier and far more interesting too. And tbh it'll depreciate just as quickly as the BMW does too.
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Yeah we can compare the price of an M3 or RS5 to a Porsche, in terms of "buck per performance" and the Porsche wins hands down, but in terms of "buck for practicality" there is nothing better than a family saloon that rivals purpose built sport cars. I'm sure that is how many people justify the spend. Why buy two vehicles, a sports car and family car, when you can buy one with a little bit of best of both worlds.

Are there lots of 911 or M3 owners trying to justify the spend though? Is anyone who has R2M to spend on something really worrying about this?

You find reasons to justify R1M or R1.5M sure - by the time you can spend R2M+ on something (its a big jump really in terms of people who can burn R1M vs R2M IMHO) then unless you have a very demanding/frugal wife the practicality argument is not really one that makes a lot of sense.
 

TBP88

Well-known member
Are there lots of 911 or M3 owners trying to justify the spend though? Is anyone who has R2M to spend on something really worrying about this?

You find reasons to justify R1M or R1.5M sure - by the time you can spend R2M+ on something (its a big jump really in terms of people who can burn R1M vs R2M IMHO) then unless you have a very demanding/frugal wife the practicality argument is not really one that makes a lot of sense.
This

The jump in financing R1m to financing R2m is *massive*. 0 deposit on a R1m car means you're paying R20k a month - doable on a post tax income of R60-70k (which means your gross is likely well over R1.3m a year) depending on your other expenses.

The same on an R2m car is R40k a month. At that level either you must be a straight cash buyer (in which case you can afford 3+ cars and likely have a lambo/mclaren/ferrari) or you're putting yourself into more debt than you can afford...
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Disagree somewhat. Sure if you want to daily drive a R2m+ car you're welcome to but the 911 will be as comfy, has an equally good interior and ride quality and maybe has 30mm less rear legroom. Sure you can't cart 2 18yr olds in the back, but a pair of small kids on a school run in the back of a 911 is no issue.

Either way if you held a gun to my head and FORCED me to buy a hot saloon I'd get a Giulia QV, R500k less than a new M3, far rarer and prettier and far more interesting too. And tbh it'll depreciate just as quickly as the BMW does too.

You beat me to it...

It is not a hypothetical situation either - it is the market positioning these cars find themselves in with the rate of inflation brought upon by each of their corporate finance departments vs. the value equation some of them choose to maintain. We shouldn't be living in a world where current M3/4 and current (recently launched) 911 pricing is sitting the way it is.

M5 CS enquiries seem to be pointing to 3.6M price point...
 

shauwn

Active member
the best part of all this is that Johan will moer the porche audi and BM with his twinturbo baby cress at the lights lol
 

TBP88

Well-known member
You beat me to it...

It is not a hypothetical situation either - it is the market positioning these cars find themselves in with the rate of inflation brought upon by each of their corporate finance departments vs. the value equation some of them choose to maintain. We shouldn't be living in a world where current M3/4 and current (recently launched) 911 pricing is sitting the way it is.

M5 CS enquiries seem to be pointing to 3.6M price point...
I think we share a pretty close view on this point of the market. TBH if you're lucky enough to be able to spend R2m on a car, just save a bit, finance a bit and get a 911 GT3 or GT3 touring. R3.5m with some decent options. Likely to not depreciate too horribly (though I think it will lose some value) and you get something infinitly more special than a trumped up 3 series with a big turbo engine.
 

Rayzor

Well-known member
Disagree somewhat. Sure if you want to daily drive a R2m+ car you're welcome to but the 911 will be as comfy, has an equally good interior and ride quality and maybe has 30mm less rear legroom. Sure you can't cart 2 18yr olds in the back, but a pair of small kids on a school run in the back of a 911 is no issue.

Either way if you held a gun to my head and FORCED me to buy a hot saloon I'd get a Giulia QV, R500k less than a new M3, far rarer and prettier and far more interesting too. And tbh it'll depreciate just as quickly as the BMW does too.
Yeah you could get away with it as a 4 seater for two minors in the rear, but that's just for driving around, add luggage or car seat/pram in the mix and its a different story. As i said, people justify the spend based on practicality, If you have a family and enjoy taking trips with your family, the M3 makes more sense. If you just in it for the thrill and madness then yes, Porsche all day everyday.
 
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Rayzor

Well-known member
We shouldn't be living in a world where current M3/4 and current (recently launched) 911 pricing is sitting the way it is.
Yes we shouldn't, but here we are... It leaves people who can afford these cars with a choice, do you want to hoon around in a sports car or do I want a fast family saloon. At the end of the day, It boils down to personal preference. Maybe we should have a survey for all those people who purchased these cars and ask them why or how the made their "choice"? We should also have one for those who spend 1bar on an e30. :ROFLMAO:
 

TBP88

Well-known member
Yeah you could get away with it as a 4 seater for two minors in the rear, but that's just for driving around, add luggage or car seat/pram in the mix and its a different story. As i said, people justify the spend based on practicality, If you have a family and enjoy taking trips with your family, the M3 makes more sense. If you just in it for the thrill and madness then yes, Porsche all day everyday.
I guess we'll never really know. This is a BMW enthusiast site, if you go back and look around 2014-2015-2016 a lot of guys here did buy M4/M3s. Will we see the same for the new one? I doubt it. As I said a 911 isn't a great car for the school run, but it is sufficient. And again, if you can drop R2m on a car I *massively* doubt you have one car only. Given car trends you probably have some sort of SUV/X5/Range Rover thing to take the kids to school and "daddy" has his own car. The age of the sports saloon is dead, and BMW pricing it in line with legitimate sports cars has just hastened that death...
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Yes we shouldn't, but here we are... It leaves people who can afford these cars with a choice, do you want to hoon around in a sports car or do I want a fast family saloon. At the end of the day, It boils down to personal preference. Maybe we should have a survey for all those people who purchased these cars and ask them why or how the made their "choice"? We should also have one for those who spend 1bar on an e30. :ROFLMAO:

I don't think the criteria they are using are the same criteria YOU are using when choosing a car...

And no, people buying at this price point are (in my opinion) unlikely to justify the spend based on practicality (if so it is far down the chain)... neither is it based on purely 0-100 times or else everyone would have Audi's or Electric cars.
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
I guess we'll never really know. This is a BMW enthusiast site, if you go back and look around 2014-2015-2016 a lot of guys here did buy M4/M3s. Will we see the same for the new one? I doubt it. As I said a 911 isn't a great car for the school run, but it is sufficient. And again, if you can drop R2m on a car I *massively* doubt you have one car only. Given car trends you probably have some sort of SUV/X5/Range Rover thing to take the kids to school and "daddy" has his own car. The age of the sports saloon is dead, and BMW pricing it in line with legitimate sports cars has just hastened that death...

I am on this page...

I am not going to pretend that every guy arrives in a sports car - but there are a significant number that collect in Porsches, M4s, an S2000 and I find myself using the 4C more often than my M5 for school runs. Granted this is not at super high end school and I am a sample of 1 LOL.

WITH the choice of an M5 which is supposed to be the tool for all uses, I find myself using the 4C when given the choice - and it is plenty practical for the school run or short trips/weekend things... even with small kids. With lockdown around here you see more and more guys even taking the supercars and sportscars to the mall in the week and non-month-end times just to get a chance to drive them a bit more.

With a C200 that is essentially 'disposable' and the car most likely to be traded in and replaced. Certainly a sacrifice I am willing to make in terms of risk of parking lot dings etc and has enough space for trips) that finds duty on the weekends. :LOL:

My M5 gets used for what? Having a ton of fun when I feel being in what feels more like muscle car than a razor sharp tool... and since the seats go down, taking things to and from my storage unit since I don't have a bakkie. Would still certainly love it if I needed a daily again.
 

Rayzor

Well-known member
The point I'm trying to make is that not many people would drop 2+ bar on a car without giving it thought. I bet they have their reasons or else we would see a lot more sport cars on the road.
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
The point I'm trying to make is that not many people would drop 2+ bar on a car without giving it thought. I bet they have their reasons or else we would see a lot more sport cars on the road.

I see more sports cars on the road (far more) than I have seen of the New M3, M4 or M5 personally... actually probably combined. This is whether it is weekends/during the week/breakfast runs etc. This is at odds with the previous M2/3/4 where you saw them driving around all the time and in fact you still do (Area dependent of course...).

Either way I suppose people have their reasons or else we would see more of the new M3/4/5 (or E63, CLS63, GTC etc for that matter) on the road...
 

Eust

Well-known member
Are there lots of 911 or M3 owners trying to justify the spend though? Is anyone who has R2M to spend on something really worrying about this?

You find reasons to justify R1M or R1.5M sure - by the time you can spend R2M+ on something (its a big jump really in terms of people who can burn R1M vs R2M IMHO) then unless you have a very demanding/frugal wife the practicality argument is not really one that makes a lot of sense.
You have under estimate the stupidity of immediate gratification and flash factor.

With today's finance options of 84months and 40% residual, a R2M car is R26600 PM. Which ain't "unaffordable" based on the Bank's affordability for someone earning only 70k NETT.

I just bought the wife a new car at ABM a few months ago, FM by default put 72 months and asked what % residual. He was shocked when I said 60 months, 0% and here is 20% deposit as he says by default the terms are 72 and residual, and that's all the way up to M8s and X5/X6 Ms, his words.

Point is R2M is like the new R1M. R1M buys Golf Rs now.
 

TBP88

Well-known member
You have under estimate the stupidity of immediate gratification and flash factor.

With today's finance options of 84months and 40% residual, a R2M car is R26600 PM. Which ain't "unaffordable" based on the Bank's affordability for someone earning only 70k NETT.

I just bought the wife a new car at ABM a few months ago, FM by default put 72 months and asked what % residual. He was shocked when I said 60 months, 0% and here is 20% deposit as he says by default the terms are 72 and residual, and that's all the way up to M8s and X5/X6 Ms, his words.

Point is R2M is like the new R1M. R1M buys Golf Rs now.
Still - just finance a Porsche then :p But ja, when I see the cost of a GTI, the age of the guys driving them and then think about what I made in my 20s the only way it can be happening is if there are residuals bigger than pornstar tits.
 

Eust

Well-known member
Yeah definitely, and you more likely to get out the deal with a massive residual with a porsche anyway.
Point is R2M isn't big boys anyway, middle/senior type management can get a R2M car now financed in a specific way. So yes there are plenty people with only that Porsche, M4, M850i etc, renting a spot and having the cheapest possible medical aid 😅
 

TurboLlew

Honorary ///Member
Yeah definitely, and you more likely to get out the deal with a massive residual with a porsche anyway.
Point is R2M isn't big boys anyway, middle/senior type management can get a R2M car now financed in a specific way. So yes there are plenty people with only that Porsche, M4, M850i etc, renting a spot and having the cheapest possible medical aid 😅

HEAVILY dependent on industry and even then it is a relatively small % of people in an already small % of the population who would be willing to do that... If you did though, I would guess there are flashier things you would want to spend eye watering amounts of interest on... I am sure the volume has dropped with these price jumps - it certainly feels this way just (as I mentioned above) seeing how many cars you see driving around from the new generations.

Sweeping statements about how R2M is the new R1M are true of the car industry in terms of how models have crept upwards like-for-like. What they absolutely DO NOT reflect is what has happened with salaries in the past 5-6 years. All that has happened is that finance houses have 'unlocked' a few more years which people were probably doing anyway to refinance their residuals on cars that had depreciated far below the 'residual value'... They then seem to have added a residual option over and above this (which is horrifying because people are now basically bonding cars)... I mean the bond on my house is 10 years but someone is going to be buying a car essentially over 7 years + 2 more years when they refinance their R800K residual LOL. Hope the instant gratification is worth the financial suicide LMFAO. The point I am trying to make is that even if you do 'qualify', you have to be really, REALLY committed to that flash to spend the amounts being asked now AND hope you outrun the depreciation which, lets face it, is going to be catastrophic on a BMW relative to a Porsche.

That said, you are 100% right in terms of certain people doing anything and everything in the pursuit of image.

Imagine: from July someone can buy a car with no motorplan, finance it over 84 months, stop their insurance after month 1, have it sitting on jack stands or junk-tier tyres, broken from year 4 or 5 and still be owing R800K after 7 years. How someone finances it is up to them but at some point it is just a high risk rental of the car... Even then though you still need an objectively high salary to buy one. 'Only' R70K nett is not common... perhaps in some industries and roles it is, but certainly not common in terms of even the top 1% of households in SA let alone individuals.

Again sample of 1: 6 years ago it would have been a no brainer to walk into a BMW and walk out with an M5. 3 years ago I sat in an F90 and had a hard decision to make despite it being 'affordable' for me. Today the new cars that would be that 'no-brainer' option are the M2C or TT RS which is around R1.2-1.5M... These are cars 2 tiers lower than I would have shopped for previously.

Whether I could be driving an M8 if I was also willing to be an absolute moron is a moot point - I just don't have the stomach to pay somebody that much in interest and have that much money at risk... (and this is outside of things like a GT3RS or 911 Turbo S etc being in that ballpark and likely to be far safer bets). For even high earners by SA standards, you have to hope for a great bonus (few and far between), an inheritance of some kind or be sorted with a paid up house and a good mix of investments/multiple rental properties etc. My feeling is that you would have to own a successful, sustainable business, specialist medical practice or to get a tender to own these 'the right way'.

TL;DR: RIP Salaried employees trying to keep up with the Joneses even with these band-aids.
 
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