THE N/A vs TURBO ENGINE DEBATE

[gavsadler]

The other thing to remember in all this is that manufacturers are feeling the squeeze to improve efficiencies and fuel consumption. Large N/A motors aren't the greatest at getting to the required levels.

So how do you do it then - smaller capacity motor with some form of forced induction. So when driving out of boost or partial throttle, the benefits in economy are realised. When you need the power, it is readily available.

Sure the driving dynamics are different, but it doesn't make them any less fun - it's just a different kind of fun.

 

[Yuben]

If I lived at the coast, then NA all day everyday and twice on Sunday.

But alas altitude in the City of Gold dictates that turbo engines are a must.

Well in my opinion anyway:cartel:

I have yet to experience driving a N/A BMW by the coast.

Then u ain't seen nothing yet:cartel:

 

[VictorMike]

That 2jz engine is nothing without its turbo. Look how poorly they perform without the assistance of a turbo.

Toyota: 2JZ GE - 3l, 227hp, 298Nm, 6cyl
BMW: M60B30 - 3l, 215hp, 290Nm, 8cyl

Seems pretty comparable to me.

Not using the S50B30 because that's a tuned performance engine, while the 2JZ GE is not.

 

[Maljan]

It is a bit of a mystery as to why a company that bills itself as a builder of ultimate driving machines and who won the Formula One championship cannot build a straight six engine that is tunable and reliable. On the other hand, a company who is famous for building boring refrigerators-on-wheels and failed miserably in Formula One built a straight six that is the stuff of legend.

Before I go on, a quick aside. The Toyota 2JZ comes in two flavours. The first is the NA 2JZ-GE, which can be boosted with the help of the aftermarket. The consensus is that about 500 wheel horsepower is easily attainable but above that you need the (in)famous 2JZ-GTE. It came from the factory with a turbo and the bottom end is ridiculously overbuilt. The only conclusion is that the engineers were making the decisions and not the blerrie accountants! With apologies to accountants reading this rant, of course.

A quick internet search for 2JZ-GTE engines making crazy power yields lots of results. Here is a whole site dedicated to the topic.
http://www.2jzpower.com/

One example that caught my eye: stock bottom end 2JZ-GTE with a single turbo fitted to a Nissan 240SX (talk about your mongrels) that does the quarter mile in 9.27 seconds @ 150 mph (that is almost 250 km/h to us metric types). This is apparently on the ragged edge of disaster for a stock bottom end.

Sadly, Nissan guy doesn't give his horsepower figure. To put his quarter mile time into perspective, a Supra with 1103 horses on the back wheels does 10.1506 seconds @ 141.64 mph.

Do not despair, there are 1000 hp BMWs to be found on the interwebs. And not just a certain mr. Nelson Piquet's Sunday afternoon driver! The M division's V8 and V10 offerings can be blown to dizzying heights but to be fair let's stick to three litre straight sixes.

It is possible to build an S54 that makes 1000 horses, but it quite a journey. This guy had to put up with holed pistons, blown head gaskets and self destructing turbos that took out the exhaust system. After spending a metric ton of money, he got there.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1406-1000hp-e46-bmw-m3/

At this point, the Toyota guys say: "I will see your 1000 horsepower and raise you to 1800! At nine thousand rpm!"

[video=youtube]

For a diehard BMW fan, that is just not fair! It is enough to make a grown man cry. :blueCry:

The only conclusion is - if you cannot beat them, join them. So now there are E46s and E39s out there that have joined the dark side with Japanese power. And don't even get me started on the Yank powered ones. That is worthy of another rant all by itself.

 

[Crash_Nemesis]

If only HPF were still around. They were making 1000whp e46 M3's that were reliable and their customer support was amazing. I have HPF conrods and other goodies in my engine. They were an amazing company and a pleasure to deal with.

Maximum PSI are now pushing forward with some great turbo kits for e46 M3's...

RIP HPF... Some good HPF vidoes online.

 

[zippy320]

Well we wouldn't have to worry about this NA / Turbo issue for very long , in 15 years the internal combustion engine will be dead anyway if things go forward as per the news below .

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...d-of-internal-combustion-engine/#3c315e3d31d9

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope/the-internal-combustion-e_b_10928278.html

In other news , they say the New Toyota corolla will have a BMW engine fitted , who would have thought haha.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/12/22/bmw-supply-engines-next-gen-toyota-corolla/

I don't agree with the statement though about Toyota engines being bad , We have only ever had two Toyota in our family before moving over to BMW and Benz , a Cressida GLI6 and a Cressida Twim cam 2.8 and those engines were amazing for their time I don't like Toyota in general but I do miss those two RWD cars , the reliability we had from those cars would put all our Bmws and Mercedes cars that we have owned to shame 10 fold .

 

[Maljan]

In other news , they say the New Toyota corolla will have a BMW engine fitted , who would have thought haha..

After years of research, Toyota couldn't make a PCV that leaked, so they sought outside help? :tiptoe:

Don't forget about the upcoming Z4 a.k.a. Supra.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/11/25/toyota-supra-bmw-z4-getting-ready-2018-launch/

This comes to mind, for some reason:

 

[herr bmw]

^ if it needs a turbo to make power then it's rubbish.

---

That 2jz engine is nothing without its turbo. Look how poorly they perform without the assistance of a turbo.

---

so if it needs a turbo then its rubbish? then BMW must be rubbish as all has turbos now

---

I still say a car should have the engine it came with,so a bmw motor in a bmw shell,not a Toyota in a bmw.

and would I chose n/a before turbo ,or turbo before n/a,depends on the car,r34 skyline,yes I would have one,m5 e39.take one of those too,its all about the driving experience,as long as its original ,as it came out the factory

 

[325iSmk2]

Bearing failure is caused by shit fuel, not shit engineering.

Well that's that mystery solved. You heard it here first.

 

[Gizmo]

On the subject of shit engines put into bmws, bmw did it themselves by installing Peugeot engines into the e46 318i and mini cooper.:facepalm:

 

[cOlDFuSiOn]

M60 with 2 snails, this must be fun... :tiptoe:

 

[Tareeq]

I'll just leave this one here, yes it takes alot more money to build a 1000hp S54 but it would be well worthit to me.

Not taking away anything from the 2j or the rb26 as those are monsters of note :chef:

Another interesting read :rollsmile: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=325046

 

[Coisman]

See new season of Drive, season 3 episode 1 is doing a show on Turbo cars, and normal aspirated cars.

 

[Gizmo]

Watched it, still prefer NA. Turbo has its merit in today's economy but there is still no replacement for displacement.
Enjoyed the 2nd episode on bmw m division.

 

[Crash_Nemesis]

I'll just leave this one here, yes it takes alot more money to build a 1000hp S54 but it would be well worthit to me.

Not taking away anything from the 2j or the rb26 as those are monsters of note :chef:

Another interesting read :rollsmile: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=325046

That's a LAB22 e46 M3. Basically a lot of the old HPF secrets went there after HPF closed down. John, the guy sitting in the car in the video is the tuner from HPF, he now works for LAB 22.

He clearly knows his stuff.

 

[Tareeq]

I'll just leave this one here, yes it takes alot more money to build a 1000hp S54 but it would be well worthit to me.

Not taking away anything from the 2j or the rb26 as those are monsters of note :chef:

Another interesting read :rollsmile: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=325046

That's a LAB22 e46 M3. Basically a lot of the old HPF secrets went there after HPF closed down. John, the guy sitting in the car in the video is the tuner from HPF, he now works for LAB 22.

He clearly knows his stuff.

Yeah Crash I know that and there motors they build are really something to marvel at, it was always unheard of for a s50 or s54 motor to do 1000hp these guys have proven it can be done reliably.

---

Watched it, still prefer NA. Turbo has its merit in today's economy but there is still no replacement for displacement.
Enjoyed the 2nd episode on bmw m division.

Gizmo in all honesty I'm with you in this one as I'm a NA guy myself and lucky for me I live at the coast:rollsmile: I'm one of those guys that believe I'll do every last little thing to my sr20 motor and if it breaks I'll just rebuild it again but better... no gas, no turbo as it's more "rewarding" for me that way:=):

 

[zippy320]

Can you tell me more about this , Really interested , I always thought the Pre LCI E46 318i had the same engine from the E36 the M43 engine and the LCI had a the N42 which I thought both were proper BMW engines .... If my car shared an engine with Peugeot I would be soo excited LOL , hopefully small parts would be easier and cheaper to find haha . Hmm which Peugeot`s did they get the engine from? Will they share the gearbox as well?

On the subject of shit engines put into bmws, bmw did it themselves by installing Peugeot engines into the e46 318i and mini cooper.:facepalm:

 

[Ratslaaf]

If you think BMW parts are expensive, you gonna cry when you see what Peugeot parts cost.

 

[Gizmo]

Can you tell me more about this , Really interested , I always thought the Pre LCI E46 318i had the same engine from the E36 the M43 engine and the LCI had a the N42 which I thought both were proper BMW engines .... If my car shared an engine with Peugeot I would be soo excited LOL , hopefully small parts would be easier and cheaper to find haha . Hmm which Peugeot`s did they get the engine from? Will they share the gearbox as well?

On the subject of shit engines put into bmws, bmw did it themselves by installing Peugeot engines into the e46 318i and mini cooper.:facepalm:

M43 was a bmw built engine carried over from the e36. Around the year 2000 bmw needed a transverse 4cyl engine for the fwd mini cooper as bmw only built longitudinal engines which were too long and wide to work in the mini cooper. Bmw had outside companies bid to produce the engine needed. Peugeot came in cheapest and won the contract to build the engines for the mini cooper. They were also contracted to build a replacement motor for the 318i as the M43 was quite outdated, they built the N42. It was a flop and bmw cancelled the N42 deal after 3years. Late 2003 bmw started building their own motor for the 318i the N46 which was more successful and carried it over to the E90 320i.

 

[herr bmw]

Can you tell me more about this , Really interested , I always thought the Pre LCI E46 318i had the same engine from the E36 the M43 engine and the LCI had a the N42 which I thought both were proper BMW engines .... If my car shared an engine with Peugeot I would be soo excited LOL , hopefully small parts would be easier and cheaper to find haha . Hmm which Peugeot`s did they get the engine from? Will they share the gearbox as well?

On the subject of shit engines put into bmws, bmw did it themselves by installing Peugeot engines into the e46 318i and mini cooper.:facepalm:

M43 was a bmw built engine carried over from the e36. Around the year 2000 bmw needed a transverse 4cyl engine for the fwd mini cooper as bmw only built longitudinal engines which were too long and wide to work in the mini cooper. Bmw had outside companies bid to produce the engine needed. Peugeot came in cheapest and won the contract to build the engines for the mini cooper. They were also contracted to build a replacement motor for the 318i as the M43 was quite outdated, they built the N42. It was a flop and bmw cancelled the N42 deal after 3years. Late 2003 bmw started building their own motor for the 318i the N46 which was more successful and carried it over to the E90 320i.

recently I was interested in buying a mint mini cooper s from mini menlyn,77000 on clock,lady owner,really well looked after,deal was 90% done all I had to do was sign on dotted line........lucky for me I did a bit of research on them and boy did the internet not paint a pretty picture,the pug it shares its motor with is even worse.cancelled the deal straight away.