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Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
Procede V5 - Meths supplies & map settings
- Thread starter Baracus
- Start date
George Smooth
///Member
Seether said:
I agree with teh boot comment. Anything under 50/50 and you will hardly have a octane gain. The water will just play its roll in intake temps. The octane is more important though on this platform if you wanna extract maximum.
Baracus
New member
Just remember that the water meths mix ratio is by weight not by volume, as the specific gravity of methanol is lower than water.Seether said:
Specific gravity of Meths = 0.792
Specific gravity of Distilled Water = 1.000
So for example a 5 litre 50/50 mix would be:
2.790 litres Meths x 0.792 = 2.210 kg's = 50%
2.210 litres Water x 1.000 = 2.210 kg's = 50%
5 litre 30/70 mix would be:
1.756 litres Meths x 0.792 = 1.391 kg's = 30%
3.244 litres Water x 1.000 = 3.244 kg's = 70%
5 litre 70/30 mix would be:
3.733 litres Meths x 0.792 = 2.957 kg's = 70%
1.267 litres Water x 1.000 = 1.267 kg's = 30%
Would not recommend a 30/70 mix as it does ot have much benefit in terms of octane, a properly mixed 50/50 ratio by weight is safe and should not ignite (also depends on how much oxygen u have available). Suggest you try mix a couple of ml's in a teaspoon and see whats the highest ratio u can get at the coast without igniting from a naked flame?
imp:
Baracus
New member
EDIT/CORRECTION:Baracus said:
So today I was working on the car as my meths flow has been erratic. Was testing the tubing and pulled off one of the pipes that still had a bit of pressure behide it, resulting in some 75/25 meths mix spilling in my engine compartment :argh: Fortunately the car was cold and not switched on, immediately poured water all over the spill to dilute it.
Now after reading Seether's post I got thinking about testing Meths to see how flammable it actually is? All I can say is that I'm SHOCKED :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:
So I used a syringe (accurate to 0.1 of a ml) to measure various Meths/Water ratios, started at 75/25 (by weight) and that burned like hell, which I supposed was to be expected? However what really surprised me was that a 50/50 mix (by weight) also burned strongly? So then tested a 50/50 by volume and that burned as well??? Before getting the meths kit I researched the international forums extensively and always thought that 50/50 ratios (by weight or volume) were safe and not flammable, boy was I wrong!!! Only when I got down to a 30/70 mix by volume did it not ignite??? Unfortunately as stated above 30/70 ratios dont help much in terms of improving octane. Has anyone else tested how flammable their meths/water mixes are before?
Must say that I'm a bit nervous now :fencelook:
Good work Baracus; you should have filmed it.
Meth is flamable....fuel is flamable....nitrous is flamable....all the stuff that makes power can ignite.
Our windscreen washer fluid is also flamable and so is octane boosters. Spilling oil on the road is seriously dangerous. Playing around with the electronics and electrical wiring on our cars is also hazardous.
My point is adding meth is a dangerous modification. It makes huge power but comes with tremendous risks and worse of all you cant see the flames. One can reduce the risk and i agree an 80% water to meth ratio is safer. But it will make less power but it gives great cooling benefits...And the cooler the motor; the more power it produces. I would like to see such a test - is it not possible that the cooling benefit infact provides the same power as 100% meth...if the car is run on 109 racefuel as oppose to 100% meth on pump fuel? The result should be interesting and i am inclined to think that the cooling effect gains justify running a 80% water/meth mix or even 100% water. :thumbs:
Meth is flamable....fuel is flamable....nitrous is flamable....all the stuff that makes power can ignite.
Our windscreen washer fluid is also flamable and so is octane boosters. Spilling oil on the road is seriously dangerous. Playing around with the electronics and electrical wiring on our cars is also hazardous.
My point is adding meth is a dangerous modification. It makes huge power but comes with tremendous risks and worse of all you cant see the flames. One can reduce the risk and i agree an 80% water to meth ratio is safer. But it will make less power but it gives great cooling benefits...And the cooler the motor; the more power it produces. I would like to see such a test - is it not possible that the cooling benefit infact provides the same power as 100% meth...if the car is run on 109 racefuel as oppose to 100% meth on pump fuel? The result should be interesting and i am inclined to think that the cooling effect gains justify running a 80% water/meth mix or even 100% water. :thumbs:
Baracus
New member
Finally figured out what’s causing the intermittent meths flow I’ve been experiencing when running hot.
Looks like the water/ meths mixture is boiling in the line??
So did a few tests:
For safety I started by setting the meths map to low boost, same as pump map so that there was no possibility of over boosting without the failsafe.
Then I ran some wiring directly from my meth pumps and injection valve to the driver’s seat , so that I could manually activate each while under WOT.. This setup totally bypasses the Procede activating the injector, and the boost switch switching on the pump.
Initially all was running perfectly while activating manually, and I was seeing strong meths flow (Procede illuminates the dash indicator lights when flow reaches target). However after doing a couple of hard WOT runs and temp started climbing above 120, I noticed meths flow start flickering and after a couple more runs it totally cut? So while the car was still hot I pulled over, popped the hood and tried to activate while idling. I could hear the pump going, and the injector valve click to activate, but noticed through the clear meths lines that there were nothing flowing and it looked like there were some bubbles? Now I’ve checked and re-checked all tubing several times, so I’m very sure it’s not a leak. Also when the car cooled down all was flowing perfectly again? So what this tells me is that’s it’s definitely not the Procede and/or boost switch causing the problem, as I was activating everything manually?
My last conclusion is that the water meths mixture is actually boiling in the line? Have been doing some reading and the boiling point of meths is a lot lower at altitude than at sea level. Not sure what the specific boiling point is for 5700ft, but at sea level pure meths boils at 64.4C, 75/25 water meths at 68.9C, and 50/50 water meths at 73.5C (see this link) http://www.methanex.com/products/documents/TISH_english.pdf.
I suspect these boiling points are quite a bit lower at JHB altitude as water boils almost 6 degrees lower? So it’s seems that at high altitude it’s not a good idea to run meths from the windshield wiper tank without fully insulating the meths tubing!
I think the problem actually comes in when meths is not flowing, it sits static in the long line coming from the wiper tank and absorbs the heat from the engine bay. Then when u go WOT the pump only sucks in vapour instead of water meths fluid.
I had already routed the meths line over the cowl and covered with some corrugated plastic tubing, and this was not working? So guess I’m gonna have to find a professional solution to insulate?
Twins u guys don’t perhaps sell some type of thermal insulation material?
Looks like the water/ meths mixture is boiling in the line??
So did a few tests:
For safety I started by setting the meths map to low boost, same as pump map so that there was no possibility of over boosting without the failsafe.
Then I ran some wiring directly from my meth pumps and injection valve to the driver’s seat , so that I could manually activate each while under WOT.. This setup totally bypasses the Procede activating the injector, and the boost switch switching on the pump.
Initially all was running perfectly while activating manually, and I was seeing strong meths flow (Procede illuminates the dash indicator lights when flow reaches target). However after doing a couple of hard WOT runs and temp started climbing above 120, I noticed meths flow start flickering and after a couple more runs it totally cut? So while the car was still hot I pulled over, popped the hood and tried to activate while idling. I could hear the pump going, and the injector valve click to activate, but noticed through the clear meths lines that there were nothing flowing and it looked like there were some bubbles? Now I’ve checked and re-checked all tubing several times, so I’m very sure it’s not a leak. Also when the car cooled down all was flowing perfectly again? So what this tells me is that’s it’s definitely not the Procede and/or boost switch causing the problem, as I was activating everything manually?
My last conclusion is that the water meths mixture is actually boiling in the line? Have been doing some reading and the boiling point of meths is a lot lower at altitude than at sea level. Not sure what the specific boiling point is for 5700ft, but at sea level pure meths boils at 64.4C, 75/25 water meths at 68.9C, and 50/50 water meths at 73.5C (see this link) http://www.methanex.com/products/documents/TISH_english.pdf.
I suspect these boiling points are quite a bit lower at JHB altitude as water boils almost 6 degrees lower? So it’s seems that at high altitude it’s not a good idea to run meths from the windshield wiper tank without fully insulating the meths tubing!
I think the problem actually comes in when meths is not flowing, it sits static in the long line coming from the wiper tank and absorbs the heat from the engine bay. Then when u go WOT the pump only sucks in vapour instead of water meths fluid.
I had already routed the meths line over the cowl and covered with some corrugated plastic tubing, and this was not working? So guess I’m gonna have to find a professional solution to insulate?
Twins u guys don’t perhaps sell some type of thermal insulation material?
George Smooth
///Member
Baracus said:Finally figured out what’s causing the intermittent meths flow I’ve been experiencing when running hot.
Looks like the water/ meths mixture is boiling in the line??
So did a few tests:
For safety I started by setting the meths map to low boost, same as pump map so that there was no possibility of over boosting without the failsafe.
Then I ran some wiring directly from my meth pumps and injection valve to the driver’s seat , so that I could manually activate each while under WOT.. This setup totally bypasses the Procede activating the injector, and the boost switch switching on the pump.
Initially all was running perfectly while activating manually, and I was seeing strong meths flow (Procede illuminates the dash indicator lights when flow reaches target). However after doing a couple of hard WOT runs and temp started climbing above 120, I noticed meths flow start flickering and after a couple more runs it totally cut? So while the car was still hot I pulled over, popped the hood and tried to activate while idling. I could hear the pump going, and the injector valve click to activate, but noticed through the clear meths lines that there were nothing flowing and it looked like there were some bubbles? Now I’ve checked and re-checked all tubing several times, so I’m very sure it’s not a leak. Also when the car cooled down all was flowing perfectly again? So what this tells me is that’s it’s definitely not the Procede and/or boost switch causing the problem, as I was activating everything manually?
My last conclusion is that the water meths mixture is actually boiling in the line? Have been doing some reading and the boiling point of meths is a lot lower at altitude than at sea level. Not sure what the specific boiling point is for 5700ft, but at sea level pure meths boils at 64.4C, 75/25 water meths at 68.9C, and 50/50 water meths at 73.5C (see this link) http://www.methanex.com/products/documents/TISH_english.pdf.
I suspect these boiling points are quite a bit lower at JHB altitude as water boils almost 6 degrees lower? So it’s seems that at high altitude it’s not a good idea to run meths from the windshield wiper tank without fully insulating the meths tubing!
I think the problem actually comes in when meths is not flowing, it sits static in the long line coming from the wiper tank and absorbs the heat from the engine bay. Then when u go WOT the pump only sucks in vapour instead of water meths fluid.
I had already routed the meths line over the cowl and covered with some corrugated plastic tubing, and this was not working? So guess I’m gonna have to find a professional solution to insulate?
Twins u guys don’t perhaps sell some type of thermal insulation material?
This more and more strengthens my opinion of the front mount bottle vs the rear.
The question is where is the meth boiling, in the wiper fluid line or in the added on meth line. A solution to this after you fit the insulation would be to manually purge the line by giving the pump power prior to spirited driving.
Here are some pics of my insulated meth tubing. You can get the insulation tubing from Builders warehouse or an electrical shop. Just take a piece of the meth tube with you so that they can give you the right size and thickness for the insulation tubing. You can also heat up the insulation tubing so that it fits tightly on the clear meth tubing:
Here is a pic of the clear meth tubing:
Here is one with the tubing:
Here is the insulated meth tubing in the rest of the engine bay:
Here is the tubing at the pump area:
I hope these pix are of some help to you.
@George Smooth...great thinking there.."solution to this after you fit the insulation would be to manually purge the line by giving the pump power prior to spirited driving."
I have done the same but I use the CMGS gauge to purge it for me by setting the failsafe response (pump) time on start-up. The closer the pump is to the point of injection the shorter the "delay" time should be and vise versa.
Here is a pic of the clear meth tubing:
Here is one with the tubing:
Here is the insulated meth tubing in the rest of the engine bay:
Here is the tubing at the pump area:
I hope these pix are of some help to you.
@George Smooth...great thinking there.."solution to this after you fit the insulation would be to manually purge the line by giving the pump power prior to spirited driving."
I have done the same but I use the CMGS gauge to purge it for me by setting the failsafe response (pump) time on start-up. The closer the pump is to the point of injection the shorter the "delay" time should be and vise versa.
