My e39 540i

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VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
ChefDJ@TheFanatics said:
Stunning shots.

Awesome car for an awesome long trip :=):
Click to expand...

Thanks man. We were contemplating whether to take the wife's Jetta V 2.0 or the 5er.

Cruise control and overtaking prowess beat fuel economy. ;)
 
ChefDJ

ChefDJ

///Member
I would much rather pay more for fuel and have the extra power, comfort and driving pleasure :=):
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
Ok dudes, my car has started to do this thing where when I start it sometimes, it makes a terrible rattle. this only happens some times, and only for a brief instant, and then it settles and idles fine.

Advice?
 
Gregmeister

Gregmeister

Member
Once you have replaced part #7 and all the other chain guides and tensioners, as would be the done thing to do, please could you report back to the thread and let us know if this has indeed solved your problem.

Mine does it too. Has done for ages, and from my research into the subject, the overwhelming general consensus, Land Rover forums included, is that it is valve train noise due to oil starvation on initial startup (vanos possibly included). Which I have always gone with, because to me, it sounds like valve train, not timing chain/ chain guide issues. It only lasts momentarily, which does not add up if it was chain guide, or chain tension issues, as this would manifest itself as a constant rattle. But Maybe I am wrong. Maybe Fordkoppie can elaborate on how this part causes the noise? Would be most helpful, because I cannot find a similair prognosis online.

There has always been a fair bit of debate around the longevity of the timing guides and replacing tensioners on these motors. If your car has 250k+ maybe it is a good precautionary step to take regardless. It won't be cheap to do, unless you can do it yourself, but surely better than replacing a motor.
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
So called BMW...

Quote for parts:
Deflection rail: 1828 (7 in diagram)
Chain tensioner (1): 1818.18 (17 in diagram)
Chain tensioner (2): 1320.00 (20 in diagram)
Rail: 676 (14 in diagram)
Timing chain: 1787.04 (1 in diagram)

Now.. I can afford this no problem, and I feel it needs to be done. My car is reaching a very high mileage.

The thing is, is it something I can do at home (which I prefer to do, I like working on my car), or should I defer to a professional?
 
Fordkoppie

Fordkoppie

///Member
Gregmeister said:
Once you have replaced part #7 and all the other chain guides and tensioners, as would be the done thing to do, please could you report back to the thread and let us know if this has indeed solved your problem.

Mine does it too. Has done for ages, and from my research into the subject, the overwhelming general consensus, Land Rover forums included, is that it is valve train noise due to oil starvation on initial startup (vanos possibly included). Which I have always gone with, because to me, it sounds like valve train, not timing chain/ chain guide issues. It only lasts momentarily, which does not add up if it was chain guide, or chain tension issues, as this would manifest itself as a constant rattle. But Maybe I am wrong. Maybe Fordkoppie can elaborate on how this part causes the noise? Would be most helpful, because I cannot find a similair prognosis online.

There has always been a fair bit of debate around the longevity of the timing guides and replacing tensioners on these motors. If your car has 250k+ maybe it is a good precautionary step to take regardless. It won't be cheap to do, unless you can do it yourself, but surely better than replacing a motor.
Click to expand...

Without hearing the noise myself, I cannot say for certain that it is the chain. But at the sort of mileage he is at, he is running on borrowed time. So as you said, its a good precautionary step to take.

Regarding the sound itself - I have heard a few that was in fact the worn out chain/tensioner components. And it also takes just a few seconds to silence after a startup.

The thing is, the chain tensioner works with oil pressure. Therefore, the engine needs to run first, before it can actually tension the chain fully. That would be the function of part #20. It has an internal spring as well, but not nearly stiff enough to keep the chain properly tensioned without the oil pressure.

So what happens is the following:
Part #7, #17 and the chain itself wears out. naturally there is more slack in the chain, so part #20 needs to extend much further to tension everything up.
So when it is standing overnight, the pressure bleeds off part #20, and now relies only on the internal spring. But because the piston needs to extend much further than usual, the spring is exceptionally weak at this point (Spring tension = Deflection x stiffness constant). So it rattles until the oil pressure is up.

If you switch off the car after it has quietened down, and restart within a short time, it will be quiet on the next startup, because the pressure has not bled off from the tensioner.
Greg - Your car has Vanos as well, so that is yet another thing that can rattle until oil pressure is up.

With #7 being plastic and 20 years old, and worn thin, it doesn't like this chain slapping against it with the chain being slack at startup, until one day it simply collapses. And then you wallet also collapses:blueCry:
Hope this makes sense

VukMiler said:
The thing is, is it something I can do at home
Click to expand...

Biggest problem would be to time the cams again, because I assume you might not have the alignment tools?
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
Yeah.. I did look up the procedure on-line, and it looks very next level, not to mention the special tools needed.

Is there anyone on the forums that does this sort of thing professionally?
 
Gregmeister

Gregmeister

Member
Fordkoppie said:
Gregmeister said:
Once you have replaced part #7 and all the other chain guides and tensioners, as would be the done thing to do, please could you report back to the thread and let us know if this has indeed solved your problem.

Mine does it too. Has done for ages, and from my research into the subject, the overwhelming general consensus, Land Rover forums included, is that it is valve train noise due to oil starvation on initial startup (vanos possibly included). Which I have always gone with, because to me, it sounds like valve train, not timing chain/ chain guide issues. It only lasts momentarily, which does not add up if it was chain guide, or chain tension issues, as this would manifest itself as a constant rattle. But Maybe I am wrong. Maybe Fordkoppie can elaborate on how this part causes the noise? Would be most helpful, because I cannot find a similair prognosis online.

There has always been a fair bit of debate around the longevity of the timing guides and replacing tensioners on these motors. If your car has 250k+ maybe it is a good precautionary step to take regardless. It won't be cheap to do, unless you can do it yourself, but surely better than replacing a motor.
Click to expand...

Without hearing the noise myself, I cannot say for certain that it is the chain. But at the sort of mileage he is at, he is running on borrowed time. So as you said, its a good precautionary step to take.

Regarding the sound itself - I have heard a few that was in fact the worn out chain/tensioner components. And it also takes just a few seconds to silence after a startup.

The thing is, the chain tensioner works with oil pressure. Therefore, the engine needs to run first, before it can actually tension the chain fully. That would be the function of part #20. It has an internal spring as well, but not nearly stiff enough to keep the chain properly tensioned without the oil pressure.

So what happens is the following:
Part #7, #17 and the chain itself wears out. naturally there is more slack in the chain, so part #20 needs to extend much further to tension everything up.
So when it is standing overnight, the pressure bleeds off part #20, and now relies only on the internal spring. But because the piston needs to extend much further than usual, the spring is exceptionally weak at this point (Spring tension = Deflection x stiffness constant). So it rattles until the oil pressure is up.

If you switch off the car after it has quietened down, and restart within a short time, it will be quiet on the next startup, because the pressure has not bled off from the tensioner.
Greg - Your car has Vanos as well, so that is yet another thing that can rattle until oil pressure is up.

With #7 being plastic and 20 years old, and worn thin, it doesn't like this chain slapping against it with the chain being slack at startup, until one day it simply collapses. And then you wallet also collapses:blueCry:
Hope this makes sense

VukMiler said:
The thing is, is it something I can do at home
Click to expand...

Biggest problem would be to time the cams again, because I assume you might not have the alignment tools?
Click to expand...


Thanks for the explanition Fordkoppie. Makes alot of sense. VukMiler, if you feel up to the task, you can pick up the Timing tool kit for around R1750 off e-bay. I got a kit for my M50 motor and it is excellent quality. Have you dropped the oil pan to check for debris yet? Could be one way to check the extent of the problem if the guides are failing?
 
Peter@AEW

Peter@AEW

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
Just a general observation
Add roughly R6k to your parts list for new thermostat gaskets seals and crank bolt.(crank bolt replacement dependent on how easily old one comes off)
Chain can be had aftermarket for roughly R700 and is as good as OE.

I am positive that you shall find all the deflection rails worn out to critical stage.

If you have not worked on a v8 before I would caution you to take your time if you decide to delve into it as you would need above average skills to do it successfully.
The crank bolt will be challenging and will add to your vocabulary in great abundance as it is torqued to 400Nm and the longer it sits on the car the more challenging it becomes to loosen.

Whilst you in there change the oil pump retaining bolts, do not re torque them but rather change them.

If I were to rate the difficulty on a scale of 1 to 10 I would say this is a good 7.
Count on roughly 10 hours to strip and roughly 20 to assemble.
Make sure that you remove the sludge and burned oil from all the covers as well as the sump as it will aid in the engines longevity
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
Thanks for the advice, people.

Yeah, I am thinking.. gonna give it to someone else to do. I don't have the tools or time.
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
So the car has accumulated a number of little niggles that need to be sorted out, which I will be doing this weekend, but I also thought I would treat her a little bit.

And what do ladies like being treated with the most?

A new pair of shoes of course!

screenshot_2016-05-20-14-08-30_1726024392.jpg


Picked up a full set (5 wheels) of style 81s and 2 good tyres for 5k. The spare has the most curb rash, but all in all the wheels are straight. Will be taking them all for a good restoration before putting them on. Watch this space...
 
sash

sash

///Member
restoration or refurb...?

if the one is the pic is the worst then i assume it needs a good clean up.
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
sash said:
restoration or refurb...?

if the one is the pic is the worst then i assume it needs a good clean up.
Click to expand...

Nah, the one in the pic is how 4 of them look. Mostly little pits and scratches.

Whats the difference between refurb and restoration?
 
VictorMike

VictorMike

///Member
So I went to BMW to order cup holders.

Quote: R2500 for front ones.

I literally laughed in the dudes face.

I am sorry BMW, but you can fuck right off. You cant charge me 2500 for a bit of plastic, especially one that is so badly made.
 
AdiS

AdiS

Well-known member
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