///M Tax & Servicing

[TurboLlew]

I have no major updates on my F10, with the 4C having received most of the attention this month, but having gone through the process of getting quotes and various bits of advice, I thought I would share this here. I am not naming and shaming, but rather want to share the experience and see if this is par for the course.

All I wanted to do was a service and fairly mundane work (for this platform anyway) in the form of plugs and coil packs.

Backyard mechanics didn't interest me but I thought I would look at indies. I found that many of the independents close to me (and even those not-so-close) had me chasing up with them on getting quotes. I am not a fan of chasing people in order to give them money at the best of times. Of those that responded I was not happy with pricing. I also looked into the quotes and saw a variety of things added that made me ask a few questions.

Quoting & Booking process itself:

BMW has come a long way when it comes to this. You put in your VIN online, it identifies your car, you choose what you would like done and (in my case) first thing next morning I got a call from the dealer to book the car in and add more things to check. They were able to do slightly better (once all was said and done) than the online quote.

Indies: I mentioned chasing up above, but another irritating thing was the 'bedside manner' of the people you're entrusting your car. I felt like this was very unprofessional and left much to be desired.  This was enough to put me off at least a couple. I honestly don't have the time or energy to be constantly chasing people or making friends with tuners or mechanics. Either way, if the guys are really that busy they are probably making enough money so don't really need mine...

[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]The volume of stuff that is added to these quotes is substantial and they tell you that this is all stuff the dealer won't do and if you don't do them your car is basically going to explode. I get the feeling that they like to paint BMW as incompetent (I am not saying there is no incompetence at BMW). All this does is create fear, uncertainty and doubt and is a well known tactic across many industries. Injector cleaners, flushes, Ceratec, astronomical amounts for oil of what was the wrong grade quoted in 3 out of 4 cases (ranging from slightly thicker to a lot thicker). [/font]

[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Thing is, if you strip out all of these additions and compare apples with apples, it is still cheaper to do a service at a dealer. Some things are not really speciality things you need a dealer to do: eg: pop in some LiquiMoly injector cleaner yourself for a fraction of the price for instance.[/font]

Parts Pricing

The larger independents get better pricing from BMW than list. I have seen it when collecting parts myself a few times. I would guess they get similar or slightly worse than what Fanatics are offered from Deago. However, in the same way I described above with the additives, there were things like "high altitude plugs" (whatever those are) and coil packs were quoted at literally double the price fanatics get these for from Deago. It is one thing to add 10 or 20% on top of the list price, but how on earth is it double (and then you're still paying to fit it)? So they take the dealer margin, spin a sad story about BMW part pricing and then still add a significant % on top? I spoke to a few other guys (the ones who pointed me in the direction of some of these places) and it seems they didn't even bother checking in with the dealer assuming it would be more expensive. This of course wasn't the case for all of them, but nobody was even parity priced let alone 'cheaper'

Labour Rates
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]I am not sure if an[/font][font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]yone is checking this (or if they care) but in most cases you are paying exactly the same labour rate as a dealer - sometimes more if there are more hours quoted. I know there are some places where eg: if you have a V10 you're actually better off going to a place which knows the 'tricks of the platform' than going to a dealer (TuneTech springs to mind here as an example or AEW for S54s etc). However I am not sure this is the case with the newer cars - certainly not to the point of having the same rates as a 'prime location' dealer workshop.[/font]

How much of this is ///M=Money and just greed, and how much is just not being able to secure good pricing on components I don't know. Maybe others have different experiences. I ended up using BMW in the end with OEM oil and parts. Plugs and coils were done in my garage (supplied by Deago). I genuinely would have given an indie a shot had pricing even been the same as a dealer - but nobody was close.

I don't think BMW is perfect by any means and I know many people don't have good experiences with their local dealers... but whenever I've had a problem it has been resolved (and quickly) because there are consequences.

Keen to hear others experience.

 

[Peter@AEW]

I find that there are a few indies who will do a decent job and charge a fair price for their efforts.
Then there are the indies who will charge a client for having an oil pump refurbished when it does not need it.

As to agents I have severe skepticism when it comes to competence and clean work.

Whether an M or a 318 the basics remain the same and whoever tells you differently is pulling your chain.

If you can do the work yourself look no further.
It will take longer but you will know it has been done right and at least any breakages you will rectify instead of having it hidden with silicone and cable ties.

 

[Kyle]

Agreed, M Tax is real sadly.... I generally use a mate of mine ,who happens to own a workshop, purely because I am able to dictate what I want done without having to stress about additional items or going down the rabbit hole trying to diagnose issues. There's also the option to get involved which I'm always keen on if time allows. I suppose part of this is down to my OCD and the manner in which I would like things done, coupled with VERY rough experiences in the past. For example, I plan on performing a gearbox service soon. ZF will definitely tell me the mileage is too high, and BMW does not offer this... I can guarantee most of the places here wouldn't know what I was talking about if I requested a quote... Doesn't exactly inspire confidence that the correct process will be followed.

It's also far too common for indy mechs to fall short on the business and customer interaction side of things, your technical ability will only get you so far, this is definitely where BMW would come up tops.

The only issue I have with sending the car to BMW for anything other than a service is that they generally aren't very flexible (well in my experience in KZN).. If something isn't on their usual list then they tend to go into safe mode... (still waiting on a quote from Supertech for valve stems on my ex 320i and bearings on my ex M3, many confused faces when I requested this).

 

[NBN]

Not saying this doesn't happen at stealerships but less likely for parts to get swopped out or go missing because of the level of accountability

 

[kingr]

Great discussion guys! Sometimes it’s better getting this done at a dealer vs indie shop. Another issue with indie shops are special tools, you need to know that you are not a genie pick and that they have the tools for the job. An example on the vag platform is special tools to lock the cams that are different across models.

 

[General.Massacre]

I must agree with this thread.
Sometimes going to the dealer is the best and cheaper option.
Ive had my experiences with "indies" and similar. Albeit not the larger shops such as the Tune Techs and Budlers, as generally the first request is to have the car booked in for a day so they can do checks and confirm fi what i want is needed.
As much as i appreciate the sentiment for them to check the car, generally when an "enthusiast" calls a shop to try arrange work done, then we have done the research ahead of time, and not thumb sucking.
so to save time, i generally just move on.

Ive had a fair bit of work done at JSN, for the reasons they are just down the road from my offices, so it s a quick drop off situation for me.
Quintin and Viz have always looked after me best they can within their power. this includes my DCT service and a quick radiator install.

Im busy dealing with Deago at Midrand, and although im sure he gets pissed with me always calling asking for pricing then very rarely ordering, he is always accommodating, and assists.
so if you reading this Deago, thank you

 

[Peter@AEW]

I wanted to elaborate further however was time limited so here a few thoughts.

The legendary M Tax is a fact however one of the things that needs to be considered is parts availability from the agents and the dead time that the workshop has to contend with.

With most older M cars there is always a shortage on parts that may be required if not the normal service items.

I have on many occasions experienced delays in getting parts from Germany for the cars I work on.

Translate that into a formal workshop that needs to make a wage bill every week and has rent to pay and the M tax becomes a reality.

In addition most M cars require special tools for any engine work to be done on them and those tools will not have the same amount of use as would a tool from an ordinary non M BMW.
That also needs to be factored into the "charge".

In addition to the above there is an element of technical complexity on the M engines which does require extra time  and should anything go wrong it becomes expensive to rectify so there is a premium to the hourly labour rate.

I am by no means saying that what Llew has described from his recent experience in asking for quotes is not valid.
What I am saying is that an M car will oftentimes have a higher labour rate due to the above.

At the end of the day it is an engine that needs petrol air and fire to go boom and not a magic box of tricks requiring the services of an alchemist.

 

[lebofa]

This applies not only to the M cars. simple oil service or break pads replacement on a 320d. you will be shocked to see that ABM, even Northcliff auto at times, is cheaper than indies or charge the same amount. Not talking about special cases where you will need an engine overhaul, simple oil service and what is more disappointing is that some of those indies are advertisers here and you will think when you mention BMWFanatics forum when you request a quotation, they give you a good price. That is why i will always service at the dealership and if I need an engine swap or any special job to be done, i will consider the indies  :fencelook:

 

[devastator]

So I have a partially different outlook on all of this. @"TurboLlew" knows my car probably better than even I do.
I had a engine misfire code pop up, and after a chat with Llew decided to do all the plugs first, I probably googled for around 4 hours trying to find a similar NGK plug from local suppliers (Prices were utter madness). I went the route as suggested by Llew on the first post and decoded my vin and found the matching part numbers for plugs and coils.

I prefer being more DIY with my F10 M5 (Yes you can DIY things on here), Plugs and Coils were probably cheaper than parts I spend on my Subaru, 86 or 200SX direct from BMW. There are ways of avoiding the //M tax. Save yourself the headache, check out the BMW dealership first before jumping to another shop that's probably going to either not fit Original parts or take your parts and fit them to someone else car.

Installation took me around 3 hours since it was my first crack at it. Recently I just ordered every replacement gasket, seal and bolt for replacing my Turbos, it costed me less than R 1000. For peace of mind for the next 100 000km probably.

 

[Madejagsie]

My experience of the dealerships has scarred me for life. I initially took my previous M to the dealership because the driver side mirror wasn't working and the previous owner added chrome surrounds to the cluster which came loose and interfered with their normal operation.

It cost R2k to fix the driver side mirror and I was told that the cluster could not be repaired. R6k for a new one that needed to be imported. Went to an indie and R250 rand later the cluster was fixed. More recently I required a stabilser bracket that again needed to be imported. 8 weeks after paying for it I was told that they don't have stock in Germany and no idea when they will have stock. Trying to get a refund meant providing personal information etc.

Again my indie sorted this out. 

That said I did have a good experience when the airbag was recalled.

 

[VinceM]

Old thread, but interesting read.

I had an extremely good Indie, you can’t take that away from him. He knows my E46s backwards, I was happy with the work he carried out though his pricing was on the high side.

Then a few things came up around him probably doing parts swap, I got cold feet, started using BMW dealership. Their prices came in much cheaper, the lead times to the car also good (no “leave your car with me and come back after a few days.....for almost everything). There is also recourse, I had an issue with the Indie and had to bear costs despite the fault being his.

I then started learning to do some work myself, I’m still a juvenile but so far, happy with the level of work I did. It takes me much longer to do things but then I’m 100% sure it was done correctly, to my standard, no cable ties & sh!t. Buying parts myself from ABM, I’m also saving on part prices too.




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[Scott021]

I recently bought a E92 M3 knowing I'd like to have the bearings replaced for my own peace of mind. The concern was who to entrust this 'open heart surgery' considering the assumption is that BMW are ridiculously expensive. I wanted whoever was going to do the job to take it seriously, e.g. not checking their facebook likes in between torquing the bolts. I'm based in Cape Town and picked up a few names of potential dealers and indies from various posts on this forum. I also contacted TuneTech for a benchmark estimate since from what I can tell they seem to do this job fairly regularly, and to their credit they were extremely helpful with advice and information, even though they knew I'd never be a customer of theirs being in the Cape.

Long-story short, the estimate from BMW was ballpark what had been mentioned on forums for the job and by TuneTech, so I decided to go with BMW since at least I'd have some hope of recourse should I not be happy and they are more likely to stick to their agreed schedule. I was very happy with the dealership experience (a first for me) in terms of customer service, knowledge of service advisor and workshop manager. They knew I'd done my research about what was involved and I specifically asked them if they'd done this job before and told them that I wanted an experienced tech on the job, not an apprentice who would be learning on my engine in between whats apps to his girlfriend. I asked them to check other bits 'n bobs while working in the area, which they did and reported back on, and they took photos of the bearings for me against the a rod bearing sheet I email to them, so I could see which bearing shell came off which piston. They also discounted parts and labour at the end of it all.

So I'd say it is worthwhile to get an estimate on parts or servicing from BMW and not assume their pricing will be stratospheric. However, one needs to do their own research on where to take a vehicle and would feel comfortable. Not all dealerships will operate at the same level; service, integrity or otherwise. For example, one dealer's phone kept ringing and wasn't answered and another cut my call when trying to transfer to the service department. The third one answered the call on the first ring and was a pleasure to deal with from then on.

 

[individj]

someone in cape town had their E46 bearings done at SMG and we were shocked he said it came to R16 000