-
Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
HPF (RHD) Twin Turbo Kits for e46 M3!!!!!!
- Thread starter ChrisBrand
- Start date
when i have time ill try re-find some build treads, but honestly its going to be a pain because i dont even remember what forums they were on... I know SAV had issues blowing diffs on an M3 (hopefully because its local others will also know about it) and i have seen plenty drift guys change to after market diffs because the stock one just dont not last and its a pain to rebuild them all the time...
how can a non M not be less complete than an M? but an M is build for a certain power if they did not do that it would just weigh too much... by taking it out of those parameters things will break and need uprating... when i was at chiplogic a while back i heard about an M3 that launched and the whole rear subframe ripped out the floor i dont know how much power it had, but dont think because its an M car its indestructible...
the guys who boost the crap out of their cars and somehow dont break anything obviously dont push their cars hard often... then probably sell it on and the next guy blames to previous owner for all the things that break...
the S54 also has more RPM so it has alot more air going though it than a 3L M54 this is important because with an SC the boost level is kept low because of the stock compression... the more air the engine naturally flows gives you a higher gain because you generally get a percentage of your starting power when boosting...
with a turbo this is less important because you need to lower compression anyway from the start...
I am by no means the worlds expert on the e46 M3 but from what i have seen there is no advantage in using the M3 over the 330i for a turbo conversion... if there is by all means prove me wrong
how can a non M not be less complete than an M? but an M is build for a certain power if they did not do that it would just weigh too much... by taking it out of those parameters things will break and need uprating... when i was at chiplogic a while back i heard about an M3 that launched and the whole rear subframe ripped out the floor i dont know how much power it had, but dont think because its an M car its indestructible...
the guys who boost the crap out of their cars and somehow dont break anything obviously dont push their cars hard often... then probably sell it on and the next guy blames to previous owner for all the things that break...
the S54 also has more RPM so it has alot more air going though it than a 3L M54 this is important because with an SC the boost level is kept low because of the stock compression... the more air the engine naturally flows gives you a higher gain because you generally get a percentage of your starting power when boosting...
with a turbo this is less important because you need to lower compression anyway from the start...
I am by no means the worlds expert on the e46 M3 but from what i have seen there is no advantage in using the M3 over the 330i for a turbo conversion... if there is by all means prove me wrong
Fordkoppie
///Member
Xack said:
I agree 100%
Rice up those x35s, i couldn't care less.
George Smooth
///Member
moranor said:I am by no means the worlds expert on the e46 M3 but from what i have seen there is no advantage in using the M3 over the 330i for a turbo conversion... if there is by all means prove me wrong
The E46 M3 motor has proven that it can be turbo charged up to 620whp with stock internals as they are forged internals. This in itself puts the motor to a advantage vs the 330i.
The gearbox is miles stronger and the stock clutch is good for 500whp if in good condition.
The drive line can handle the power at those levels for street use. Then you got the advantage of having the better brakes etc.
I think a lot of the opinions you have gathered in terms of which car is more reliable is because most E46 M3's that get modded at this level have had a harsh life and have high mileage without the necessary preventative maintenance hence giving you a bad impression. Your impression is also related to the many negatives you read about the E46 M3 but keep in mind the modded ratio of cars you read about online is at least 20 E46 M3's to 1 330i.
///Marksman
New member
crip notes:
- Sav blew some diffs (maybe some locals know about it?)
- Drift guys change to aftermarket diffs as stock ones don't last for ... well drifting- in competition? (who would have thought)
- an M is build for a certain power if they did not do that it would just weigh too much (scusi, io non capisco?)
- when you were at chiplogic a while back you heard about an M3 that launched and the whole rear subframe ripped out the floor, i dont know how much power it had, but (but enough said)
- but dont think because its an M car its indestructible (where or who mentioned this?)
- the S54 also has more RPM so it has alot more air going though it than a 3L M54 ..this is important because with an SC the boost level is kept low because of the stock compression... the more air the engine naturally flows gives you a higher gain because you generally get a percentage of your starting power when boosting... uhm .. *cough*
- with a turbo this is less important because you need to lower compression anyway from the start... really? do you NEED to.. so there are no turbo applications with stock internals, running at stock compression?
I seriously don't know where to start man.. it seems to me that no matter what gets said, you, and I, will not change our opinion on the matter. It's pointless debate and it won't help with people throwing in subjective views either, this will only stir up more negative emotion.. so I'll concede and rather leave the door open for other debates between you and I.
buongiorno signore:flyfun:
- Sav blew some diffs (maybe some locals know about it?)
- Drift guys change to aftermarket diffs as stock ones don't last for ... well drifting- in competition? (who would have thought)
- an M is build for a certain power if they did not do that it would just weigh too much (scusi, io non capisco?)
- when you were at chiplogic a while back you heard about an M3 that launched and the whole rear subframe ripped out the floor, i dont know how much power it had, but (but enough said)
- but dont think because its an M car its indestructible (where or who mentioned this?)
- the S54 also has more RPM so it has alot more air going though it than a 3L M54 ..this is important because with an SC the boost level is kept low because of the stock compression... the more air the engine naturally flows gives you a higher gain because you generally get a percentage of your starting power when boosting... uhm .. *cough*
- with a turbo this is less important because you need to lower compression anyway from the start... really? do you NEED to.. so there are no turbo applications with stock internals, running at stock compression?
I seriously don't know where to start man.. it seems to me that no matter what gets said, you, and I, will not change our opinion on the matter. It's pointless debate and it won't help with people throwing in subjective views either, this will only stir up more negative emotion.. so I'll concede and rather leave the door open for other debates between you and I.
buongiorno signore:flyfun:
I said right at the start that this debate is pointless, its been argued over and over across many forums.
But those people who say you must sell your M and buy a 335, would they be willing to buy the M since they are telling you to sell it.
you know the saying, put your money where you mouth is
well if I was a M owner, and I want to turbo charge my car, I am committing money to the project. So if you say I must sell the car to turbocharge a 335, then put your money where your mouth is and buy the M for a price which would make turbocharging the 335 a better prospect.
But those people who say you must sell your M and buy a 335, would they be willing to buy the M since they are telling you to sell it.
you know the saying, put your money where you mouth is
well if I was a M owner, and I want to turbo charge my car, I am committing money to the project. So if you say I must sell the car to turbocharge a 335, then put your money where your mouth is and buy the M for a price which would make turbocharging the 335 a better prospect.
thanks George
clutch and brakes i would do anyway i dont see the point of making a turbo monster if it has to be babied... but if the 330i gearbox is not up to the job then that is reason enough to turbo the M3 over the 330i...
DiVinci wow this is a fun way to spend a monday morning...
it is obviously way more complex than what i put in a short post... i really dont care any more and dont feel like getting into the differences between an SC and a turbo now or even try explain what i was trying to say in the rest of the post...
as saturnz says "its been argued over and over across many forums" why dont you go argue with them...
I would never boost an M3, but thats my choice... If boosting a M makes you happy then why would you care what people think...
clutch and brakes i would do anyway i dont see the point of making a turbo monster if it has to be babied... but if the 330i gearbox is not up to the job then that is reason enough to turbo the M3 over the 330i...
DiVinci wow this is a fun way to spend a monday morning...
it is obviously way more complex than what i put in a short post... i really dont care any more and dont feel like getting into the differences between an SC and a turbo now or even try explain what i was trying to say in the rest of the post...
as saturnz says "its been argued over and over across many forums" why dont you go argue with them...
I would never boost an M3, but thats my choice... If boosting a M makes you happy then why would you care what people think...
BillyBob
Active member
As George has mentioned, the s54 M3 engine makes for a better base when running forced induction applications...
Cast iron block (yes, 335i has one as well) with forged internals, but more importantly, it's got additional capacity and revability, which makes it more suited to high HP turbo applications, as it can drive a larger turbo, and give you a wider & more useable power band. Considering that power is a product of torque x revs, the higher rev ceiling also automatically means more power at the same kind of boost levels, meaning a big turbo S54 will ultimately be the more powerful conversion.
If it weren't for the cost and intricacies of the engine's management and VANOS, I'd actually go as far as saying the S54 makes for a better base turbo 6-cylinder engine for a high horsepower turbo conversion than just about anything out there. Skyline GTR VR38 and Supra 2JZ included...
Fitting forced induction to a CSL - yes, that's sacrilege - but as far as a normal M3 goes, I'd say it's about as good as it gets for an aftermarket turbo conversion. The motor can make stupid amounts of power with relatively little work, and the rest of the car has the correct underpinnings to put down & use that power more effectively in stock trim than a 335i.
Guys moaning about M3's with Broken rear subframes, cooked diffs, etc - you can do that in any car if you drive it like a savage, launch it like a twit, and do donuts like a braindead heathen... I can show you stock M3's with broken subframes from launching on semi's - not the car's fault, but the driver - you never side-step the clutch on a car when launching. ANY car will break when you treat it like that - especially when you run sticky tyres that can't break traction. There's an old saying that says "met geweld kan jy jou vinger in 'n donkie se gat ook afbreek"....
Fact remains that when treated with mechanical sympathy and some sense of restraint, an E46 M3 can handle silly amounts of power being channeled through the drivetrain.
The HPF twin GT22 kit looks nice enough, but those turbo's are too small and choke the motor up top, causing it to peak earlier - not something I would personally go for - but by comparison, go check out the larger single turbo conversions utilizing GT42's and so forth - the graphs on those conversions are still climbing by the time they hit the 8000 rpm limiter.
To all the haters and naysayers - go for a drive in an E46 M3 turbo with a nice big turbo that makes peak power at or beyond 8000 RPM, and then tell us again how the engine has lost it's rev-happy character.
Cast iron block (yes, 335i has one as well) with forged internals, but more importantly, it's got additional capacity and revability, which makes it more suited to high HP turbo applications, as it can drive a larger turbo, and give you a wider & more useable power band. Considering that power is a product of torque x revs, the higher rev ceiling also automatically means more power at the same kind of boost levels, meaning a big turbo S54 will ultimately be the more powerful conversion.
If it weren't for the cost and intricacies of the engine's management and VANOS, I'd actually go as far as saying the S54 makes for a better base turbo 6-cylinder engine for a high horsepower turbo conversion than just about anything out there. Skyline GTR VR38 and Supra 2JZ included...
Fitting forced induction to a CSL - yes, that's sacrilege - but as far as a normal M3 goes, I'd say it's about as good as it gets for an aftermarket turbo conversion. The motor can make stupid amounts of power with relatively little work, and the rest of the car has the correct underpinnings to put down & use that power more effectively in stock trim than a 335i.
Guys moaning about M3's with Broken rear subframes, cooked diffs, etc - you can do that in any car if you drive it like a savage, launch it like a twit, and do donuts like a braindead heathen... I can show you stock M3's with broken subframes from launching on semi's - not the car's fault, but the driver - you never side-step the clutch on a car when launching. ANY car will break when you treat it like that - especially when you run sticky tyres that can't break traction. There's an old saying that says "met geweld kan jy jou vinger in 'n donkie se gat ook afbreek"....
Fact remains that when treated with mechanical sympathy and some sense of restraint, an E46 M3 can handle silly amounts of power being channeled through the drivetrain.
The HPF twin GT22 kit looks nice enough, but those turbo's are too small and choke the motor up top, causing it to peak earlier - not something I would personally go for - but by comparison, go check out the larger single turbo conversions utilizing GT42's and so forth - the graphs on those conversions are still climbing by the time they hit the 8000 rpm limiter.
To all the haters and naysayers - go for a drive in an E46 M3 turbo with a nice big turbo that makes peak power at or beyond 8000 RPM, and then tell us again how the engine has lost it's rev-happy character.
griffen
///Member
Is this with std internals?
Sounds
like a catastrophe in the making hehehe
If I ever boosted my M I would change internals, rods + pistons with lower cr, was checking out a supercharged 36 M online and it was a monster, german car, and if I am ever crazy enough to go down that road I want crazy power hehe like 400kw
Sounds
like a catastrophe in the making hehehe
If I ever boosted my M I would change internals, rods + pistons with lower cr, was checking out a supercharged 36 M online and it was a monster, german car, and if I am ever crazy enough to go down that road I want crazy power hehe like 400kw
the main reason i would not turbo an M3 is because you lose throttle response and this will change the character of the car...
sure some will argue that if done right you will hardly notice it, but its a bit like saying you will hardly notice that wort on her face...
you can still make very good power with a supercharger and lose nothing this is what i would do if i was looking at boosting an M
if you after the most power possible and just want the numbers then turbo is the way to go :rollsmile:
sure some will argue that if done right you will hardly notice it, but its a bit like saying you will hardly notice that wort on her face...
you can still make very good power with a supercharger and lose nothing
this is what i would do if i was looking at boosting an Mif you after the most power possible and just want the numbers then turbo is the way to go :rollsmile:
BillyBob
Active member
@ griffen - YES, read the thread again - E46 M3 has forged internals from the factory... and yes, with the right fuel / water meth setup, these engines can make 450-500 kW ATW on a bolt-on setup.
@ moranor - Why would you lose throttle response???
Don't confuse this with a 1600 or 2-litre motor with loads of turbo lag and low compression, that goes nowhere when it's off-boost.
That's the misconception with turbo M3's - if you're still running good compression, you still have an incredibly responsive 3.2-litre motor that flows like a mofo, and has get-up-and-go appeal when you plant the throttle - the motor won't be any less responsive than it was when still naturally aspirated... It'll still have the same kind of response and shunt, followed by a whole lot more of it when the turbo spools.
Once again, this reinforces the notion of "DRIVE ONE" or at least get taken for a spin in one before you categorically condemn it as being a bad conversion.
Watch the first few seconds of this clip, and tell me this thing doesn't have throttle response? Or it doesn't spool quickly?
@ moranor - Why would you lose throttle response???
Don't confuse this with a 1600 or 2-litre motor with loads of turbo lag and low compression, that goes nowhere when it's off-boost.
That's the misconception with turbo M3's - if you're still running good compression, you still have an incredibly responsive 3.2-litre motor that flows like a mofo, and has get-up-and-go appeal when you plant the throttle - the motor won't be any less responsive than it was when still naturally aspirated... It'll still have the same kind of response and shunt, followed by a whole lot more of it when the turbo spools.
Once again, this reinforces the notion of "DRIVE ONE" or at least get taken for a spin in one before you categorically condemn it as being a bad conversion.
Watch the first few seconds of this clip, and tell me this thing doesn't have throttle response? Or it doesn't spool quickly?
sure it wont actually be less responsive if you put it that way, but it will be because you wont get immediate access to all the power like with NA... its just the way a turbo works and there is no real way to get around it...
with the SC you it will behave the same as NA but with more power seems like a win win to me...
with the SC you it will behave the same as NA but with more power seems like a win win to me...
Xack
Active member
saturnz said:
Well i stick to what i say cos its my opinion said OUT LOUD!! Oh and dont forget the part where i said i was starting a ///M3 sanctuary, where abused, and ///M3's about to be turbocharged can come find a safehouse from their owners:biglol: Thats right, i'll become a ///M3 Hoarder :nonono:...Please dude, listen to yourself, why would you want to sell the ///M3 to Turbocharge a 335...which jus so happens to be turbocharged already?? Have you been browsing through this Forum, do you realise the type of power George Smooth's 335 made when he hit 251km/h over 1km was with stock turbo's?? You dont need R100k to make a x35 go places boet + you can already get a 335 for R250k add another R20k, you already running circles around v8's. Peace iam out
George Smooth
///Member
moranor said:
On stock compression at no point is the turbo charged car making less power than the NA. From idle it jumps as it makes boost immediately.
i did not say it would make less power...
but
300kw NA will have better throttle response than a 300kw turbo because the exhaust gasses are not there to spool the turbo the instant you put your foot down... obviously you can reduce this with proper turbo sizing but you cant eliminate this...
now seeing as they fitted the M3 with ITB to give it good throttle response (amongst other things) it does take a little away from the car by fitting a turbo... its a trade off for more power all im saying is with a supercharger you dont have to do that and still make plenty power.
If throttle response is not that important to you then there is no reason not to go for a turbo...
but
300kw NA will have better throttle response than a 300kw turbo because the exhaust gasses are not there to spool the turbo the instant you put your foot down... obviously you can reduce this with proper turbo sizing but you cant eliminate this...
now seeing as they fitted the M3 with ITB to give it good throttle response (amongst other things) it does take a little away from the car by fitting a turbo... its a trade off for more power all im saying is with a supercharger you dont have to do that and still make plenty power.
If throttle response is not that important to you then there is no reason not to go for a turbo...
BillyBob
Active member
Moranor, no offense dude, but you're either being willfully obtuse in refusing to see the point being made here, or we're missing each other altogether in what we're trying to say.
Let's compare notes - 2500 RPM - a stock N/A S54 has around 250 Nm to it's name at WOT.
The same S54 with a turbo on it will still have that 250Nm available to it the moment you give it stick, and all it's innate throttle response, as even while it's out of boost threshold, it's not reliant on the turbo to generate that torque.. Driveability and throttle response DO NOT SUFFER and are not compromised in any way.. You still have the same basic engine dynamics - the motor remains unchanged in it's basic form and function - even though it's now breathing through more intake piping, that piping is still charged at atmospheric pressure...
Now, take it up to 4k RPM - stock S54 makes 320-odd Nm... But the turbo car, even completely off the throttle, still makes an instantaneous 320nm the moment you plant your foot to the floorboards... Then the turbo starts spooling and the torque figure climbs over stock, in direct relation to boost, and all hell proceeds to break loose.
Point that both myself and George are making here: at no point in the rev range does the turbo hamper the engine's normal torque output and throttle response, so it will never make less torque / power than stock at any point in the rev range.
Your 300 kW n/a vs 300 kW turbo comparison is entirely flawed... Because if you're using the same N/A motor as a starting point with 300 kW already, it won't be making 300 kW in turbo form - it'll be making much more, and everything below the turbo boost curve will be exactly the same as the 300 kW N/A engine, giving you the best of both worlds.
Quit basing your assumptions on wheezy 4-cylinder low compression aftermarket laggy turbo engines and the marketing hype around supercharging M3's being the way to go, and actually go for a drive in an M3 or similarly large capacity turbo engine, and tell us again how turbocharging in any way detracts from the base character and responsiveness of the motor.
Let's compare notes - 2500 RPM - a stock N/A S54 has around 250 Nm to it's name at WOT.
The same S54 with a turbo on it will still have that 250Nm available to it the moment you give it stick, and all it's innate throttle response, as even while it's out of boost threshold, it's not reliant on the turbo to generate that torque.. Driveability and throttle response DO NOT SUFFER and are not compromised in any way.. You still have the same basic engine dynamics - the motor remains unchanged in it's basic form and function - even though it's now breathing through more intake piping, that piping is still charged at atmospheric pressure...
Now, take it up to 4k RPM - stock S54 makes 320-odd Nm... But the turbo car, even completely off the throttle, still makes an instantaneous 320nm the moment you plant your foot to the floorboards... Then the turbo starts spooling and the torque figure climbs over stock, in direct relation to boost, and all hell proceeds to break loose.
Point that both myself and George are making here: at no point in the rev range does the turbo hamper the engine's normal torque output and throttle response, so it will never make less torque / power than stock at any point in the rev range.
Your 300 kW n/a vs 300 kW turbo comparison is entirely flawed... Because if you're using the same N/A motor as a starting point with 300 kW already, it won't be making 300 kW in turbo form - it'll be making much more, and everything below the turbo boost curve will be exactly the same as the 300 kW N/A engine, giving you the best of both worlds.
Quit basing your assumptions on wheezy 4-cylinder low compression aftermarket laggy turbo engines and the marketing hype around supercharging M3's being the way to go, and actually go for a drive in an M3 or similarly large capacity turbo engine, and tell us again how turbocharging in any way detracts from the base character and responsiveness of the motor.
no i see your point... you are looking at the turbo as extra power and not the way it will feel... yes you still have the power the NA motor produced instantly, but you still missing the full power till the turbo spools...
which means when balancing the car though corners with on/off throttle it becomes tricky and corners are what the M3 should do well
Now you can easily make 600hp on a supercharger kit for the M3 and have an engine that responds perfectly and does not take away dynamically from the car... yes it will be very difficult to make 1000hp from a SC but you cant really use 1000hp anyway... there are very few cars that can put that much power out and still be driverable
I have driven good turbo cars with high compression and i could clearly feel the difference...
seems to me you refuse to see what i am trying to say...
which means when balancing the car though corners with on/off throttle it becomes tricky and corners are what the M3 should do well
Now you can easily make 600hp on a supercharger kit for the M3 and have an engine that responds perfectly and does not take away dynamically from the car... yes it will be very difficult to make 1000hp from a SC but you cant really use 1000hp anyway... there are very few cars that can put that much power out and still be driverable
I have driven good turbo cars with high compression and i could clearly feel the difference...
seems to me you refuse to see what i am trying to say...
sidewayz
New member
this is getting out of hand guys, its your car and your money if u want to turbo your car go ahead, what we are all forgeting is each person wants something different from his/her car. it could be power it could be looks but the fact is its his or her car. we are all individuals here. this sensless arguing is not right. we are supposed to be helping each other not putting each other down. lets not forget that
Similar threads
