Hamann & Nowack ... comments please

[GPGrobler]

I read a comment on the forum that BMW R & D has done their job in tuning our BMW's for performance and there is not much one can do to improve on that, except to bring back performance that was there in the first place.

My question on this is: how do tuning shops and houses like Nowack, Hamann, Rob Green and Savspeed then stay in business?

Are they just that good in selling a big hoax?

 

[jcwdrop]

BMW have to consider economics and mass appeal. If they aren't to sure about recovering investment costs they won't do it. Some things they can only charge a small portion of buyers for, so they keep them available as extras. And for those things which they can't charge enough people to justify the development costs. They don't do. Tuning houses are running a different cost structure, so they can make money of work which BMW would not have considered.

 

[GPGrobler]

So it is not quite correct to say that a factory BMW is performing at its peak - it can be tweaked to perform better. :fencelook:

 

[Peter@AEW]

So it is not quite correct to say that a factory BMW is performing at its peak - it can be tweaked to perform better. :fencelook:

Well now that depends.

Performance is equal to more fuel to more wear and tear on components tyres brakes etc etc etc.

So it becomes a matter of designing a machine which is "fit for the purpose".

By way of example take the s54 engine which is to be found in the M3 and the M coupe.
The motor has reached its development limit as BMW extracted all they could whilst still keeping it reliable.
Guys with performance goodies added to those engine will tell you that the performance increase is disproportionate to the "tuning costs" unless one goes the forced induction route which is a totally different subject.

In short the answer is yes and no.

 

[Gbmw]

So it is not quite correct to say that a factory BMW is performing at its peak - it can be tweaked to perform better. :fencelook:

Well now that depends.

Performance is equal to more fuel to more wear and tear on components tyres brakes etc etc etc.

So it becomes a matter of designing a machine which is "fit for the purpose".

By way of example take the s54 engine which is to be found in the M3 and the M coupe.
The motor has reached its development limit as BMW extracted all they could whilst still keeping it reliable.
Guys with performance goodies added to those engine will tell you that the performance increase is disproportionate to the "tuning costs" unless one goes the forced induction route which is a totally different subject.

In short the answer is yes and no.

Had to read twice to understand, shot :thumbs:

Questions though,
1.Is better to mod whilst the car is new,
2.Is it safe to mod on a older (healthy)engine
3. How would u bring back original performance without modding on an travelled engine

 

[Peter@AEW]

1.Is better to mod whilst the car is new,
I guess so as all the mods and original parts will be of the same age so it makes sense.

2.Is it safe to mod on a older (healthy)engine
Within reasonable limits I see no reason as to why it would adversely affect the engine.

3. How would u bring back original performance without modding on an travelled engine
BMs have solid sub assemblies (provided oil changes are done at max 10k and not the nonsense which MP insists on)and relatively weak heads.
I would see to it that the head is re done with particular attention to chains guides cams seats and valves.

By way of example your 645 if it has travelled +200k will require new chains deflection and guide rails checking of guides valves and seats and you are good to go for another 200K (ooops vanos as well) and I assure you it will test very close to new power numbers.

Problem is that to redo a BMW engine is at the very least an expensive exercise which may well not justify the overhaul cost and lead one to buy a Japanese imported engine for nearly the same money it would cost to do the above.

 

[Gbmw]

Thanks Alex :thumbs:
I've long wondered like your example about my 6er, I need to dyno and see what she's making, but she does feel sluggish.

Good thread GPGrobler

 

[Peter@AEW]

Thanks Alex :thumbs:
I've long wondered like your example about my 6er, I need to dyno and see what she's making, but she does feel sluggish.

Good thread GPGrobler

If she is sluggish than the vanos is not working.

That leads to sluggishness as it cannot advance the cams correctly.

Just by doing vanos you will get a better sense of what the motor is capable of.
If you dyno the car now you will notice torque dips from 1500rpm all the way to 5000 rpm.
After 5000 rpm the vanos stops working as the cams are in their full position.

 

[GPGrobler]

Wow, so the Vanos affects the engine up to 5000 rpms!

Guess then that is the first fix to do after removing the semi-blocked/blocked cats - if the manifold cats on my look like the exhaust ones, they are definitely affecting the performance.

---

So if the S54 engine is the same engine in my car as the M3, can it be "changed into" an M3 engine?

---

So it is not quite correct to say that a factory BMW is performing at its peak - it can be tweaked to perform better. :fencelook:

Well now that depends.

Performance is equal to more fuel to more wear and tear on components tyres brakes etc etc etc.

So it becomes a matter of designing a machine which is "fit for the purpose".

By way of example take the s54 engine which is to be found in the M3 and the M coupe.
The motor has reached its development limit as BMW extracted all they could whilst still keeping it reliable.
Guys with performance goodies added to those engine will tell you that the performance increase is disproportionate to the "tuning costs" unless one goes the forced induction route which is a totally different subject.

In short the answer is yes and no.

Referring to the Nowack E39 M5, Nowack did nothing drastic to improve or tweak the performance, but simply removed the restrictions that BMW have put on the engine, which I think would not have affected reliability of the car.

 

[Sankekur]

So if the S54 engine is the same engine in my car as the M3, can it be "changed into" an M3 engine?

No, the S54 is a completely different motor.

 

[GPGrobler]

Thanks, guess the 330i and the M3 also do not share the same power plant then?

 

[madness_inc]

Thanks, guess the 330i and the M3 also do not share the same power plant then?

Nope.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[Sankekur]

Thanks, guess the 330i and the M3 also do not share the same power plant then?

They share cylinder spacing....that is pretty much it.

 

[GPGrobler]

Getting back to the Vanos:

NOTE: If the VANOS camshaft system goes to the fail-safe mode (deactivated) there will
be a noticeable loss of power. This will be like driving with retarded ignition or starting from
a stop in third gear.

My question regarding the above is, will this be the result in first gear too, so in second and third, it will be like driving in fourth and fifth at speeds too low, and you will not even be able to use fifth at all.

 

[George Smooth]

Getting back to the original question.

Manufacturers make cars to please all tastes. The marketing guys also have a large role to where the model will slot in the range hence spreading output across models to get maximum sales. This in some cases leave a lot of power on the table.

They also have to think about future models so that from model to model there is a evolution of power gains or in this day and age a performance improvement.

Sound also makes a big difference both on the induction side and exhaust with client taste and noise regulations playing a major role.

In the past a lot of cars where also released to cover global fuel octane availability. This affected performance on quite a few vehicles and simple software upgrade increasing timing improved performance by quite a bit.

Today with the turbo generation its all about slotting the cars in the right price range. The N54 can easily make the new M3 power level but imagine how disgruntled people would be about a car released a whole generation later.

 

[Sankekur]

Getting back to the Vanos:

NOTE: If the VANOS camshaft system goes to the fail-safe mode (deactivated) there will
be a noticeable loss of power. This will be like driving with retarded ignition or starting from
a stop in third gear.

My question regarding the above is, will this be the result in first gear too, so in second and third, it will be like driving in fourth and fifth at speeds too low, and you will not even be able to use fifth at all.

No.

The car will drive like one that has fairly aggressive cam timing, it will have less low and mid range torque, but peak torque should be the same.
The analogy of being two gears up makes no sense as this will pretty much halve the torque delivered to the wheels...if fixed cam timing has such a pronounced effect on your torque delivery it is likely something else is also very wrong with the motor.