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Sherwin@xcede

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Before I make my point, let me allow you Einsteins to reply.

Using all your brain cells, can you tell me your reasoning behind M3's making more power in 4th gear as opposed to 3rd gear on the hyper-powers you are dyno'ing on? On your NA cars? Why does 4th gear make more power than 3rd gear?
 

CGroenewald

New member
Sherwin@Xcede said:
Before I take you guys apart, let me allow you Einsteins to reply.

Why do you think your brains are saying a car makes more power in 4th gear on the hyper-powers you are dyno'ing on? An your NA cars? Why does 4th gear make more power than 3rd gear?

4th gear is a straight drive (1:1) ratio.Wat gos in is cumming out.
Other gears are via diffrent ratio's. I'm a petrol 7 diesel mech ( Foreman).
 

Sherwin@xcede

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CGroenewald said:
4th gear is a straight drive (1:1) ratio.Wat gos in is cumming out.
Other gears are via diffrent ratio's. I'm a petrol 7 diesel mech ( Foreman).


Ok 1stly, 3rd gear has a higher torque multiplication that 4th gear. The 1:1 is actually 5th gear on the M3's. 6th is overdrive at 0.83.

But sorry, maybe my question was mis-understood. My question was in reference to a hyper-power dyno where a gearing calibration happens before the run (dam I may have just given it away).
 

Twinz

Forum - Support
Staff member
A very good question:
My answer would have been this as well: "3rd gear has a higher torque multiplication that 4th gear"
 

Raybimmer

New member
I don't understand question because 4th can't make more power than 3rd gear .( power is dependant on engine speed , torque is dependant on gearing ) IMHO if 5th is 1:1 , 4th is 1,23 :1 , 3rd is 1,67 to 1 then 3rd would have 1,67 times torque of 5th gear ( if gear friction losses are constant ) . I would expect the excessive torque in 2nd gear would be such that wheel slip would occur on rollers and give incorrect figures . 6th , 5th and 4th would have less torque on the wheels , look at caravan towing speeds in each gear - many cars may reach 130 in 3rd , and only get 140 in higher gears if lucky . I am certainly not a mechanic .
 

Sherwin@xcede

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Raybimmer said:
I don't understand question because 4th can't make more power than 3rd gear .( power is dependant on engine speed , torque is dependant on gearing ) IMHO if 5th is 1:1 , 4th is 1,23 :1 , 3rd is 1,67 to 1 then 3rd would have 1,67 times torque of 5th gear ( if gear friction losses are constant ) . I would expect the excessive torque in 2nd gear would be such that wheel slip would occur on rollers and give incorrect figures . 6th , 5th and 4th would have less torque on the wheels , look at caravan towing speeds in each gear - many cars may reach 130 in 3rd , and only get 140 in higher gears if lucky . I am certainly not a mechanic .

You sir, are on the right track. But we have very intelligent fellows on here that say 4th gear makes more power than 3rd gear (on a hyper-power where the gearing is calibrated to even out the torque multiplication). So I would like their opinion on why they think 4th gear makes more power than 3rd the dyno's they use.

Bear with me, I have an end goal in mind. I shall bring out the artillery after I hear their response.
 

Twinz

Forum - Support
Staff member
i think i will stay out of this fight...i can picture you with a huge AK47...aimed right at me...:)...

but as you can see in my above post, i agree with your theory....share your other thoughts...i am keen to learn :thumbsup:
 

Fuzzy

///Member
I am trying to sleep....

Here's some food for thought

1) Later model drive by wire vehicles have torque & traction control programmed into ecu . This varies by the selected gear and is achieved by opening throttle to a lesser degree even though the drivers foot is flat. This could allow for the difference in power readings.

2 )Turbocharged vehicles develop more boost sooner in 4th gear as there is more load present, therefore difference in power readings.

3) Not all hyperpower dyno's give more than 2% difference between 3rd & 4th gear runs.The torque graph is more defined though.
 

Twinz

Forum - Support
Staff member
Hmmmmm...wife is in hospital for a two day operation...ek is "garswewenaar"...
Don't feel like racing...have been put off since the mini car accident that killed those kids...but i look forward to the street to strip at killarney...apparently the speed recording machine has been broken for a couple of months...so i will only go when it is fixed...
 

Fuzzy

///Member
Joh thats a long operation :mmm: Hope its nothing serious.

lekker tho to be wifeless for a bit, does wonders for the soul! My husband would have a field day!

Yes indeed I too have been scarred by the news of the senseless deaths of those kids. its very heartbreaking to say the least' This is why Inwas steered away frim illegal racing. We have now all realised that not everyone is cut out to handle a fast car or anything with an engine for that matter!!

Iit is however natural instinct for when the air and night out there is sooo crisp, you know your car is just going to swoooop up sum of that cool clean air that makes it run like a bastard!
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
Fuzzy said:
I am trying to sleep....

Here's some food for thought

1) Later model drive by wire vehicles have torque & traction control programmed into ecu . This varies by the selected gear and is achieved by opening throttle to a lesser degree even though the drivers foot is flat. This could allow for the difference in power readings.

2 )Turbocharged vehicles develop more boost sooner in 4th gear as there is more load present, therefore difference in power readings.

3) Not all hyperpower dyno's give more than 2% difference between 3rd & 4th gear runs.The torque graph is more defined though.

You have a well thought out response and some very valid points there Fuzzy. We could probably discuss this for hours.

I am talking specifically about the E46 M3 here, so not turbo cars. But you are correct turbo cars can generate more load and hence more boost in a higher gear. And the M3's don't really wheelspin in 3rd gear up here. I doubt even at sea-level will they wheelspin on the dyno. Unless they boosted or something. What's your view, are you seeing wheelspin in 3rd?
 

BonedM3

New member
Sherwin@Xcede said:
Fuzzy said:
I am trying to sleep....

Here's some food for thought

1) Later model drive by wire vehicles have torque & traction control programmed into ecu . This varies by the selected gear and is achieved by opening throttle to a lesser degree even though the drivers foot is flat. This could allow for the difference in power readings.

2 )Turbocharged vehicles develop more boost sooner in 4th gear as there is more load present, therefore difference in power readings.

3) Not all hyperpower dyno's give more than 2% difference between 3rd & 4th gear runs.The torque graph is more defined though.

You have a well thought out response and some very valid points there Fuzzy. We could probably discuss this for hours.

I am talking specifically about the E46 M3 here, so not turbo cars. But you are correct turbo cars can generate more load and hence more boost in a higher gear. And the M3's don't really wheelspin in 3rd gear up here. I doubt even at sea-level will they wheelspin on the dyno. Unless they boosted or something. What's your view, are you seeing wheelspin in 3rd?


Hey Sher what's with the name calling in the other thread... why you getting personal....i never once insulted or picked on you. Do you have to speak like that to get your point across....
 

freerider

Honorary ///Member
BonedM3, the other thread was closed because of all that crap, lets not let this one degenerate as well.
I understand that you are agitated, but lets leave that thread in the past and continue without the name calling and retaliation.
 

Major

Active member
I'd love to know as well. As far as I know (and I happily stand to be corrected) you lose mechanical advantage the higher the gear. On any good dyno, runs done one after the other in progressively higher gears show almost parallel lines that get lower for each higher gear.

I'd actually like to tack on a question here since you're all in the tuning game. My understanding (which is probably wrong) is that the car, on the street, actually puts down the same amount of power regardless of gear, but a dyno measures power by measuring the rate of change of speed comared to how quickly the car climbs to X RPM, and punches the math behind it. There is no real way to measure actual torque as it is on the surface of the tires, just mathematical induction. As soon as you, say, reduce the weight of the rollers, the values would rise. It is obviously not possible for a car to climb as quickly through 5th as it can 4th, 3rd, whatever, which is why these rolling dyno's release lower numbers for higher gears, because of the rate at which the car climbed through the RPM range.

Dyno's are purely used for comparison before and after tuning. As far as real correct figures are concerned, I don't think that dyno's are ever 100% accurate. They're used as a means of comparison on the same car, on the same day, in the same gear, with different tunes/setups. When you start comparing it to other cars, even if they're the same make/type/year, you're missing the point. Same goes for choosing a different gear. You should pick the gear closest to 1:1 to avoid torque multiplication in the gearbox, or it colours your results.

AmIcorrectorwhat?
 

Sherwin@xcede

BMWFanatics Advertiser
Official Advertiser
BonedM3 said:
Hey Sher what's with the name calling in the other thread... why you getting personal....i never once insulted or picked on you. Do you have to speak like that to get your point across....

Ok so the word "idiot" is a noun in the English language. Maybe FreeRider will disagree but I don't see that as calling names. It is my opinion and hence I asked for your logic behind a car making more power in 4th to see if I am right or wrong. Maybe I was a bit harsh, and I apologize.
 

///MOS1TED

Banned
CGroenewald said:
Sherwin@Xcede said:
Before I take you guys apart, let me allow you Einsteins to reply.

Why do you think your brains are saying a car makes more power in 4th gear on the hyper-powers you are dyno'ing on? An your NA cars? Why does 4th gear make more power than 3rd gear?

4th gear is a straight drive (1:1) ratio.Wat gos in is cumming out.
Other gears are via diffrent ratio's. I'm a petrol 7 diesel mech ( Foreman).




OMW !!!

Chris is this you.....Shaun here....


:thumbsup:
 

Fuzzy

///Member
Sherwin@Xcede said:
Fuzzy said:
I am trying to sleep....

Here's some food for thought

1) Later model drive by wire vehicles have torque & traction control programmed into ecu . This varies by the selected gear and is achieved by opening throttle to a lesser degree even though the drivers foot is flat. This could allow for the difference in power readings.

2 )Turbocharged vehicles develop more boost sooner in 4th gear as there is more load present, therefore difference in power readings.

3) Not all hyperpower dyno's give more than 2% difference between 3rd & 4th gear runs.The torque graph is more defined though.

You have a well thought out response and some very valid points there Fuzzy. We could probably discuss this for hours.

I am talking specifically about the E46 M3 here, so not turbo cars. But you are correct turbo cars can generate more load and hence more boost in a higher gear. And the M3's don't really wheelspin in 3rd gear up here. I doubt even at sea-level will they wheelspin on the dyno. Unless they boosted or something. What's your view, are you seeing wheelspin in 3rd?

Hi there Sherwin

Ok, I will put my car on the dyno and report back soonest.
 
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