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Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
F80 M3 Vs. RS4
- Thread starter CocoPops
- Start date
Dewald Basson
///Member
YUBEN said:
Did you except the V8 M3 to win in straight line?
Magneto
New member
@Dewald, then you are just stating the so very obvious. Unless the cars are identical the matchup will never be fair. As I said in a previous post, F80 M3 vs F80 M3 is fair, C63AMG vs C63AMG is fair, RS4 vs RS4 is fair.
Stating the matchup is unfair when two direct competitors are pitted against each other, sounds like sour grapes whether it is or not.
Putting a 1000hp GTR against a 1100hp Veyron is unfair as one is modded and the other isn't. One has 4 turbos the other has 2. One has 100hp more than the other. The losing team will claim its unfair . pick a reason.
So based on your statement that the race is unfair, I expect you to make the same comment on all the TLGP's that are posted :rollsmile:
Stating the matchup is unfair when two direct competitors are pitted against each other, sounds like sour grapes whether it is or not.
Putting a 1000hp GTR against a 1100hp Veyron is unfair as one is modded and the other isn't. One has 4 turbos the other has 2. One has 100hp more than the other. The losing team will claim its unfair . pick a reason.
So based on your statement that the race is unfair, I expect you to make the same comment on all the TLGP's that are posted :rollsmile:
Dewald Basson
///Member
If you race a car that weights 235kg more than it's competitor, yes I call the race unfair or lets rephrase to "now that was obvious".
That is just me, each to his own.
That is just me, each to his own.
Dewald Basson
///Member
YUBEN said:
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
adamr
Well-known member
Rs4 is a direct competition no doubt... The new M is a monster in a straight
When engineers at either stable engineer their cars
at M, RS or Amg they consider the competition in their calculations, even in the competitive marketing they compare these marques
M3, RS4, C63... New M is the king here until the c63 is tested... And RS4 as an avant, is the correct form for this car... Damn would love an RS2 avant...
M5, RS7, Cls63... The RS7 is the king here
S65 and no one else... Come bmw
When engineers at either stable engineer their cars
at M, RS or Amg they consider the competition in their calculations, even in the competitive marketing they compare these marques
M3, RS4, C63... New M is the king here until the c63 is tested... And RS4 as an avant, is the correct form for this car... Damn would love an RS2 avant...
M5, RS7, Cls63... The RS7 is the king here
S65 and no one else... Come bmw
Magneto
New member
adamr said:
Wouldn't you rather include the RS6 in this class in bold and put the RS7 with the M6 GC?
I think the M5 would be the king in that class, and the RS7 would be a close run with the M6 GC. From a launch goodbye M6. On a roll, I think the M6 would take it.
I don't see the S63 as a performance class, so I can see why BMW don't want to compete.
raise:You see the problem here is very simple...its a case of new tech vs old tech. The RS4 engine is ancient hence the unfair comparo against bmw's latest offering. Bare in mind that engine has been in the RS5 since 2010. Unfortunately we will have to wait till 2016-2017 for the newer RS model to compete. Now the car to compare "apples to apples" with is the new c63 amg. Now that would be interesting. :YesNo:
GoCart
///Member
It's simple, Audi messed up somewhat, maybe not intentional.. or maybe they did and wanted to offer a different type of car. But it is true that the RS4 and & M3 are direct competitors, and Audi lost, the end.
They can not take the fight to BMW with a NA V8 with the hope of keeping up with super high tech turbo technology.
I love Audi, and BMW and AMG and any other fire breathing fuel burner... but in order to stay competitive in your class, one must do things right.
They can not take the fight to BMW with a NA V8 with the hope of keeping up with super high tech turbo technology.
I love Audi, and BMW and AMG and any other fire breathing fuel burner... but in order to stay competitive in your class, one must do things right.
Bugger
///Member
The RS5 was brought in by Audi as a direct competitor to the M3 (E90/92 etc) as the market for a fast small Audi saloon in Europe is not there, and the fact that the B7 RS4 was a bit of a dog with it's carbon issues. Hence there is no RS4 saloon now.
In B7 guise, the RS4 was almost identical to the E90/92 M3 figures wise, the only difference being the torque figure, 400 on the M3, 440 on the RS4 (KW rated the same at 309). It needed the additional torque to pull the heavy Quattro system around. 0-100 times were also almost identical (theoretically). However, interestingly, the RS4 was lighter than the E90.
Audi have in their range the RS4 Avant, RS5 (not in Sport Back) coupe and vert, the RS6 Avant (4L twin turbo V8 and no saloon. We don't get this because Audi don't see enough of a market for super Avants locally) and the RS7. RS7 (409Kw) to compete with the M6 GC (412kw) (as there is no coupe version), the RS6 to compete with a non-existent M5 tourer, the RS5 to compete (realistically) with the M4, and ostensibly the S4 to compete with the M3. The S4 is a sleeper of note. Stock vs stock, the M3 will hand the S4 a hiding. The S4 is deemed to be the flagship B8. The RS4 almost falls into a void. That being said, Audi slipped with both the RS4 and the RS5. They both should've been twinscroll (at the least) turbo 4L V8's. So a derivative of the twin turbo V8 in the RS6 Avant and the RS7.
This RS4 was NEVER going to come close to that M3, the power to weight ratio is just completely off the spectrum power wise, the M3 has newer technological engine specifications (the 4.2 V8 in the Audi has been around since the early 2000's in the C5 twin turbo RS6, 331Kw and 580Nm, and is known to be heavily retarded by carbon build up issues, which can set in as early as 10,000km's on the clock. So all in, there was never a chance of that Audi winning.
The B7 RS4 wasn't even a match for an E46 M3, let alone an E90/92. A strong B7 RS4 on a dyno in JHB is doing just under 200WKW, that alone should show you. Which means, logically, that the current one, rated at 332Kw, will be in the region of about 220WKW (guessing at reef adjustments). So factoring in the fact that the M3/M4 will lose just about nothing, even at coastal adjustments, the actual power curve on the BMW will be significantly better, less loss through the drive train, less weight to carry around etc. Quattro adds an additional 300kg's to the weight of an Audi. So realistically, off the bat, the M3 will be pulling a lot more power, probably over the 50Kw mark more.
In B7 guise, the RS4 was almost identical to the E90/92 M3 figures wise, the only difference being the torque figure, 400 on the M3, 440 on the RS4 (KW rated the same at 309). It needed the additional torque to pull the heavy Quattro system around. 0-100 times were also almost identical (theoretically). However, interestingly, the RS4 was lighter than the E90.
Audi have in their range the RS4 Avant, RS5 (not in Sport Back) coupe and vert, the RS6 Avant (4L twin turbo V8 and no saloon. We don't get this because Audi don't see enough of a market for super Avants locally) and the RS7. RS7 (409Kw) to compete with the M6 GC (412kw) (as there is no coupe version), the RS6 to compete with a non-existent M5 tourer, the RS5 to compete (realistically) with the M4, and ostensibly the S4 to compete with the M3. The S4 is a sleeper of note. Stock vs stock, the M3 will hand the S4 a hiding. The S4 is deemed to be the flagship B8. The RS4 almost falls into a void. That being said, Audi slipped with both the RS4 and the RS5. They both should've been twinscroll (at the least) turbo 4L V8's. So a derivative of the twin turbo V8 in the RS6 Avant and the RS7.
This RS4 was NEVER going to come close to that M3, the power to weight ratio is just completely off the spectrum power wise, the M3 has newer technological engine specifications (the 4.2 V8 in the Audi has been around since the early 2000's in the C5 twin turbo RS6, 331Kw and 580Nm, and is known to be heavily retarded by carbon build up issues, which can set in as early as 10,000km's on the clock. So all in, there was never a chance of that Audi winning.
The B7 RS4 wasn't even a match for an E46 M3, let alone an E90/92. A strong B7 RS4 on a dyno in JHB is doing just under 200WKW, that alone should show you. Which means, logically, that the current one, rated at 332Kw, will be in the region of about 220WKW (guessing at reef adjustments). So factoring in the fact that the M3/M4 will lose just about nothing, even at coastal adjustments, the actual power curve on the BMW will be significantly better, less loss through the drive train, less weight to carry around etc. Quattro adds an additional 300kg's to the weight of an Audi. So realistically, off the bat, the M3 will be pulling a lot more power, probably over the 50Kw mark more.
Magneto
New member
Can you buy the a new RS4 Avant right now? The answer is yes.
Who are its direct competitors if not the M3? Perhaps the C63 estate. But thats not fair either as the C63 has a moerse big engine.
So its in a class of its own.
If that was the RS5 instead of the RS4, the result would have been the same. Another unfair race. As someone mentioned, Audi messed up. The have the power figures on paper but their direct competitors are way ahead of them.
So yes, you could say this race is unfair, but then Audi have brought it on themselves by using old tech in a new car and trying to compete.
Instead of saying, unfair race, I prefer to say, awesome BMW manufacturing. The M3 is a gem and one would expect positive comments towards it on this forum. Making excuses for the Audi belongs on the Audi forum.
Who are its direct competitors if not the M3? Perhaps the C63 estate. But thats not fair either as the C63 has a moerse big engine.
So its in a class of its own.
If that was the RS5 instead of the RS4, the result would have been the same. Another unfair race. As someone mentioned, Audi messed up. The have the power figures on paper but their direct competitors are way ahead of them.
So yes, you could say this race is unfair, but then Audi have brought it on themselves by using old tech in a new car and trying to compete.
Instead of saying, unfair race, I prefer to say, awesome BMW manufacturing. The M3 is a gem and one would expect positive comments towards it on this forum. Making excuses for the Audi belongs on the Audi forum.
rayven_king
New member
So feelings were indeed hurt :fencelook:
