Can Somebody Please Explain

[zaleonardz]

opcorn:

 

[CyberMatix]

I usually find that when someone prefaces their post with the disclaimer "I don't mean this to be racist, but...", then it usually ends up being just that. You might want to alter your thinking slightly - there are many of us in "the majority" who don't burn down buildings or barricade highways to protest things. This is a poverty issue, and the fact that the poor/underserviced will be mainly Black in a country with South Africa's history is an incidental point.

Obviously you find it puzzling - it's baffling because you're not in their situation. It's very easy to sit and suggest that people should be logical about their grievances - I know, because I'm guilty of it all the time. But when you're in that sort of situation, anger tends to foment and express itself in destructive ways - the same way Council kids on English estates vandalize property and commit other crimes. It's a global phenomenon that expresses itself via particular symptoms for each unique country.

And yeah, it's frustrating to watch, but once we're done being frustrated, what then?

I share your observations. But IMHO you are not part of the "majority". Just reading your post and your use of grammar suggests you are an extremely well educated person (and you have great car style:rollsmile. This is not so for the "majority".

The main driver for these protests IMHO are poverty, and a sense of betrayal. When the new government took over in 1994, the majority were made major promises, that even at that time it was clear that were totally impossible to keep. What made it worse that instead of trying to make it better for the majority, the opposite took place, many in the ruling elite made it their life's work to make themselves rich. And to make it even worse, most of the rich white people that they believe caused all their problems, are pretty much still rich. If anything the poverty of the majority increased, and now you have these millions of people that are essentially very pissed-off. So what do they do. They pillage and burn.

I have sympathy for you guys that aren't white, but got somewhere because you probably worked for it. Getting an education isn't free or easy. And now you are painted with the same wide brush as the majority that pillage and burn.

But that's life, nobody promised that it would be fair.

 

[prado]

Poverty is indeed a terrible phenomenon that drives people to go to the lowest levels of thinking. Whether English council kids or whoever.

However, I have visited very poor countries in the east but have not witnessed crimes the way we witness here. Why? There is element of education and spirituality. There is a vision of hope. There is a choice - destroy or build.

Situation is no excuse for choosing to destroy - hope and desire for a better life is a choice to build and appreciate what we have. Choosing to destroy or build is a choice regardless of background. The Japanese did not cry and destroy after suffering the worst destruction the world has seen. No - they took to education and shook the world!

Today, the Americans who destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki have spent billions on Jap cars and products until they destroyed their own car industry!

There is a certain conscience - and it has to do with humanity - poor or not.

Hurt or destroy and you are only bringing more of the same for yourself - you only do yourself harm regardless of what colour we may be.

There is no excuse! But how would anyone understand this if we live in a country that doesn't even consider what education is? When education is just another department to put officials in suits, in luxury cars, great speeches and lecturing to learners to be in school when the rest of the world are saying duh!

Our system says 'learners should be in school and teachers should teach!' Hah!

Isn't that obvious?

But to SA it is a 'mission' printed on school registers issued by government! What a joke!

BTW, Maybe you should alter your thinking somewhat because its been 18 years now and you are talking about poor/underpriviledged when opportunites for the masses are a fact today. Look around! There are plenty of opportunities - especially for the 'masses!'

Are they choosing them, are they doing their part? I don't know! But I do know that there is a destruction of things that did nobody harm!

And, about 'puzzling' or 'baffling?' I'm sorry, I don't get that! Because every day we read about how their taxes are embezzled in Travelgate, this Gate and that Gate but with their lack of education, they can't even read about the billions stolen by the people whoever they may be that they voted for!

Oh, yes and 'anger formenting?' Proper education would teach anyone that anger is an act madness on the spur of the moment.
Proper education has taught me that nothing comes out of anger, hatred or malice. Destruction of yourself does!

To end I'd like to quote something profound, yet simple - something great people such as Mandela and Ghandi may agree with - unfortunately, with our 'great' education system, how many would understand?

"Two men looked out of prison bars, one saw the mud and the other saw the stars!"

No matter what or where we come from, what our background, it is what's in our minds that we see, act and bring about!

Look at which parts of the world have been an example and maybe we can take some lessons!

Thank you.

 

[Budleigh]

We definitely have a flawed/failed education system. For as much crap as we inherited from the bad old days, the present government has singularly failed to give the people in dire poverty access to quality education and other resources. And until that's addressed, we'll have this sort of phenomenon repeating itself ad nauseam.

It's difficult to draw comparisons with other countries, because of the different histories involved, so I won't go into that. Kinda ironic that people are striking and protesting on the eve of the Sharpeville anniversary.

 

[CyberMatix]

Well this is just my Western Liberal view on things FWIW.

We live in Africa, and in Africa the African culture prevails. We can try and impose Western Liberal concepts such as Democracy, Rule of Law, Work Ethics, Don't Lie, Steal or Murder, and all other such nice things, but the bottom line is clear - it simply doesn't and never will work. The African culture is more about raw tribalism, survival of the fittest, Big Men, and I'll kill you before you kill me.

In fact the concepts of democracy, rule of law, etc, is just used by the Power Elite to entrench their power, and enrich themselves.

What confuses me is that in all other countries in the world protests like these are labelled as "anti-government" protests, but here in good ole SA they are magically "service delivery protests". WTF.

The choice is quite simple IMHO, either suck it up, or go and live somewhere else that is not in Africa.

Crazy Man say wut?

Mmm, it seems I've overestimated your level of intellectual maturity somewhat.

Sorry, my BAD.:sorry:

 

[Budleigh]

Well this is just my Western Liberal view on things FWIW.

We live in Africa, and in Africa the African culture prevails. We can try and impose Western Liberal concepts such as Democracy, Rule of Law, Work Ethics, Don't Lie, Steal or Murder, and all other such nice things, but the bottom line is clear - it simply doesn't and never will work. The African culture is more about raw tribalism, survival of the fittest, Big Men, and I'll kill you before you kill me.

In fact the concepts of democracy, rule of law, etc, is just used by the Power Elite to entrench their power, and enrich themselves.

What confuses me is that in all other countries in the world protests like these are labelled as "anti-government" protests, but here in good ole SA they are magically "service delivery protests". WTF.

The choice is quite simple IMHO, either suck it up, or go and live somewhere else that is not in Africa.

Crazy Man say wut?

Mmm, it seems I've overestimated your level of intellectual maturity somewhat.

Sorry, my BAD.:sorry:

Nah dude, I was being irreverent, because I couldn't tell if you were serious or not. That stuff about "African culture" is borderline offensive. Do I need to explain why?

 

[prado]

Actually, it's rather sad!

Let's forget about comparing to other countries! People are people!

We have a limited time on this Earth. We have lost many years of true compassion and nation building after Mandela retired.

With our country's corruption, stealing, wrong attitudes, and lack of gratitude where are we heading?

Apartheid was wrong! Simple! But does that mean what we are getting today is right!?

The masses do not even know the meaning of Human Rights!

Thank you for agreeing that we have a flawed education system. That is a fact. But more so, an 18 year old fact that will take a lifetime to repair!

May we focus on a proper life experience for all!

Because life between birth and death is a total of the experiences we have!

Why make it difficult?

But then, only proper education can teach anyone that, isn't it?

 

[CyberMatix]

Well this is just my Western Liberal view on things FWIW.

We live in Africa, and in Africa the African culture prevails. We can try and impose Western Liberal concepts such as Democracy, Rule of Law, Work Ethics, Don't Lie, Steal or Murder, and all other such nice things, but the bottom line is clear - it simply doesn't and never will work. The African culture is more about raw tribalism, survival of the fittest, Big Men, and I'll kill you before you kill me.

In fact the concepts of democracy, rule of law, etc, is just used by the Power Elite to entrench their power, and enrich themselves.

What confuses me is that in all other countries in the world protests like these are labelled as "anti-government" protests, but here in good ole SA they are magically "service delivery protests". WTF.

The choice is quite simple IMHO, either suck it up, or go and live somewhere else that is not in Africa.

Crazy Man say wut?

Mmm, it seems I've overestimated your level of intellectual maturity somewhat.

Sorry, my BAD.:sorry:

Nah dude, I was being irreverent, because I couldn't tell if you were serious or not. That stuff about "African culture" is borderline offensive. Do I need to explain why?

OK, I see your point - I didn't intend to offend you. My BAD

My point is that there are different cultures. I don't say that Western culture is better than African culture, as a matter of fact Western culture is pretty screwed up, especially at the moment.

My specific point is that it doesn't work to "impose" one culture, that works "sometimes" for some people, especially westerners, on another culture, that isn't western.

There isn't "one" culture, that is best for everyone, even though westerners have the mindset that "their" culture is the "best".

IMHO the problem is that in SA is that some aspects of the western culture such as predatory capitalism is preferred above aspects such a rule of law and non-corruption.

In the longer term, African culture may prove to be superior to Western culture, if it is purely about survival, and surviving of the fittest, that seems to be a good model for evolution. Only time will tell.

 

[Prev]

Sad sad situation in our great land :nonono:

 

[moranor@axis]

I dont think we can say its our country, its people or culture at fault... this happens everywhere the london riots are a good example...

yes we have our own flavor, but we really need to stop thinking the grass is perfect in the rest of the world... it just is not. every country has problems no place is awesome to live in all the time unless you are blind...

fact is we are way better off than most of africa and i sure as hell would not want to move to south america...

I went over for a bit and came back to SA... not because i missed freinds and family, im not a family person and most of my friends are slumming it in 1st world countries...

what i came back for was the space, beauty and true freedom South Africa delivers...

 

[prospect]

I usually find that when someone prefaces their post with the disclaimer "I don't mean this to be racist, but...", then it usually ends up being just that. You might want to alter your thinking slightly - there are many of us in "the majority" who don't burn down buildings or barricade highways to protest things. This is a poverty issue, and the fact that the poor/underserviced will be mainly Black in a country with South Africa's history is an incidental point.

Obviously you find it puzzling - it's baffling because you're not in their situation. It's very easy to sit and suggest that people should be logical about their grievances - I know, because I'm guilty of it all the time. But when you're in that sort of situation, anger tends to foment and express itself in destructive ways - the same way Council kids on English estates vandalize property and commit other crimes. It's a global phenomenon that expresses itself via particular symptoms for each unique country.

And yeah, it's frustrating to watch, but once we're done being frustrated, what then?

100% but destroying private property is plain stupid and should be punished.

 

[Beast_Power]

I do not think it is a lack of eduction, I think it is the lack of plain common sense. I just learned that they also burnt down the power station that was supplying Ratanda with electricity, now they are back to candle light and now they probably going to strike about that as well, no measure of eduction is going to give you plain common sense.

And yes like said before sometimes these things get out of hand, but common sense must prevail, they can now actually stop protesting as they no longer have anything to complain about as they have completely destroyed everything they were protesting about in the first place.

And saying it is as a result of being impoverished is a idiotic idea, as there are poor people right across the colour spectrum, and you do not see everybody running around destroying property to their own detriment.

As for government, Idiots, that were voted in by idiots and before anybody says anything, just think about it. Every election you get promised exactly the same things, in between the elections none of these promises are fulfilled, you gripe and complain and protest, but everything stays the same, until the next election comes around, that you get promised the same promises as last and you vote for them in again, and now going for 18 years.

 

[moranor@axis]

lol at burning power station while protesting about power cuts...

 

[bmwforlife]

My two cents with regard to this thread ;
1) It would be facile to blame the current situation on lack of education or any other factor in isolation since it is much more than that stretching from social phenomena such as poverty to complex issues such as class .

2) The entire debate about the civilized or uncivilized nature of the riots and the senseless thereof misses the point entirely ,riots /public unrest are by their very nature violent , destructive and wanton . Consider the LA riots of 1992, Brixton riots of 1958 and even further back in Peterloo in the 1800's. Bear in mine that these are first world countries where for a period of time chaos reigned and martial law was declared .

3) What does this tell us ? What every psychologist and Roman emperor has known since the beginning of time true power lies in the controlling of the mob . Once mob mentality takes hold it has a life of its own that must first burn out before normality returns .

4) As to the promises of 1994 well suffice to say that I am a child of that period having reached manhood round about then and certainly cannot remember one unrealistic promise made by any political party other then the normal puffing of politicians .

5) In my opinion what is happening is growing disquiet and uneasiness with the disparity between the have and the have nots . A fight or struggle against a poverty that robs people of their humanity relegating some to live in circumstances worse than some animals . It is a global fight . What happens each time the G8 meets at Davros ? We have a massive protest which turns violent at the drop of a hat .

6) Some could say the answer is government must do more Oh really ? How and with who's money if I may ask ? That is in any event not the solution just look at the UK a welfare state battling with a society of capable people living on the dole because they can living in a system that panders to their weaknesses .

It isn't easy to reach or even contemplate a solution in these circumstances but a good starting point is to recognize that each person has the same inherent right to human dignity as the other irrespective of race, creed or belief .

The next time we see a poor street person how do we view them ? With scorn and disdain or with an innate understanding of their importance and dignity ?
7) If we change our view and approach to the poor and dispossessed will that not alter their view of themselves and their place and importance in society ?

Of course it must and then we will start to see change since inevitably these protests were about being heard and seen ......possibly for the first time in their estimation . A Phyrric victory of course it is , but sometimes it's either that or death .....

 

[CyberMatix]

...

4) As to the promises of 1994 well suffice to say that I am a child of that period having reached manhood round about then and certainly cannot remember one unrealistic promise made by any political party other then the normal puffing of politicians .
...

Well I was around at that time too, and was in my high 30s, and the only thing I can think is that we might have been living in different parallel universes.

I made a point of speaking to many black people of different socio-economic classes then and in the years following 1994 and I got a complete different impression from yours.

The expectations were very high, unrealistic so. The majority of the population believed that there would be a radical improvement in their quality of life. There were some that believed that they would receive free housing, electricity, medical, and education, and quite soon they would be "as rich" as the white people, living in nice brick suburbs with two cars in the garage. Most on the lower end of the scale (shack dwellers) believed that soon shacks would be something of the past - everybody would have nice paying jobs and have enough extra spending power to live a very comfortable life. The politicians didn't do anything to dispel these beliefs.

As we all know this didn't quite work out this way. A few insiders became filthy stinking rich, a larger number moved up the scale to a more middle class existence, but the majority stayed just as poor as they ever were. In the past few years, due to the world economic meltdown, the level of poverty increased.

So this is IMHO one of the driving forces for the current unrest, not only because they are still very poor, but even the few things that became more available, such as electricity, have a horrible level of service delivery.

And of course in their view the whites stayed just as rich as they were before, so there are millions of very pissed off people out there, and if you don't want to believe that, you do so at your own peril.

 

[Sith]

Although these topics can be interesting, there are unfortunately no solutions to the problems, anywhere in the world, or in anyone's lives. We are all just part of a sick experiment that will only end with the termination of our species, much as what has happened with other species before us. Mother Nature has no conscience, it's an unstoppable force that smashes everything in it's way.

I am not being negative here, it's just reality. The bottom line is we live, we fuck, we die, and all the rest in the middle is just padding. So the aim is to live for the good times we are given, and treat others as we would want to be treated, although always be wary of them. No one gets out alive anyway. Enjoy your BMW's while you have them.

 

[bmwforlife]

Hi Cybermatix ,

I don't disagree that there are lots of angry , disspossesed poor people out there in fact that is symptomatic of society in general world wide .

What I do dispute is that the majority of the previously disadvantaged had these delusions of grandeur in respect of the coming elections and the material effect it would have upon their lives .

It is entirely conceivable that those you spoke to at the time had unreasonable expectations but it should be noted they were a very small number in comparison to the total population and as such it would not be possible to extrapolate their attitudes and beliefs to the general population so at best one could say the people you spoke to held a certain belief etc .

As to statements by for example the ANC , PAC et al at the time were nothing more than utterences of liberation movements trying to find their feet in a democratic dispensation .

It is also so that BEE has been applied unfairly and in some instances in a very nepotistic fashion which is very dissapointing , however I take a philosophical approach and remember that this has a double edged effect it is favoring some but also by chance revealing the treasures and benefits of capitalism to the most ardent and fervent of nationalists and communists which is not a bad thing .....or have we forgotten the cries for nationalisation post 1994. Its not perfect but certainly better than the alternative ..... dont you think

 

[BJORN.E90]

SA is sitting on a ticking bomb, the same way apartheid was overthrown 17 years ago the very same people who voted in the goverment of the day will be the ones who will eventually overthrow them.The rich elite are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, the influx of millions of illegal emmigrants are adding more fuel to the fire.Tick Tock only time will tell their fate.Soon the honeymoon will be over, what will remain of our beloved SA.

 

[CyberMatix]

Hi Cybermatix ,

I don't disagree that there are lots of angry , disspossesed poor people out there in fact that is symptomatic of society in general world wide .

Agreed, but according to the Gini Coefficient (and other studies), SA and Southern Africa have some of the greatest disparities between rich and poor in the world.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient.

So even while it's a worldwide phenomenon, it's quite bad here, and that doesn't bode well for the future.

What I do dispute is that the majority of the previously disadvantaged had these delusions of grandeur in respect of the coming elections and the material effect it would have upon their lives .

OK, I didn't do a deep statistical study, I only spoke to a (relatively) few people from very well educated black guys I was working with, to some farmworkers that I live with in the rural area, and a few in between (over a long period of time). And while "delusions of grandeur" is maybe a bit too strong a term, I got the impression that there were high expectations for the future, some of them reasonable and others not. Problem is that most of these expectation weren't met, and this is a IMHO a major contributing factor for the current anger in the country.

It is entirely conceivable that those you spoke to at the time had unreasonable expectations but it should be noted they were a very small number in comparison to the total population and as such it would not be possible to extrapolate their attitudes and beliefs to the general population so at best one could say the people you spoke to held a certain belief etc .

On this one we can perhaps agree to disagree. I won't challenge you to a duel, because I don't want to die.:rollsmile: But I stick to my point that there were very high expectations in the general population that things were going to be much better in the future.

As to statements by for example the ANC , PAC et al at the time were nothing more than utterences of liberation movements trying to find their feet in a democratic dispensation .

Agreed, but the general feeling was that now that the majority was "liberated", and the previous oppressive regime gone, and the oppressed leaders were now in charge, things would improve drastically. It didn't really matter what was said exactly in statements by the ANC/PAC, the high levels of (mostly unrealistic) expectations were still generated.

It is also so that BEE has been applied unfairly and in some instances in a very nepotistic fashion which is very dissapointing , however I take a philosophical approach and remember that this has a double edged effect it is favoring some but also by chance revealing the treasures and benefits of capitalism to the most ardent and fervent of nationalists and communists which is not a bad thing

OK, a few points here, I have a major problem with a constitution that guarantees "no discrimination on the basis of race", and an Act that has a "specific race" singled out and appearing in the Title of the act (BEE). This is just pure doublespeak, and makes no sense at all. I don't have a problem to give the "previously disadvantaged" a fair break, but to base it on Race alone makes a mockery of the constitution, that was widely sold to the population to be "the best constitution in world". To have a constitutional court that doesn't seem to understand this blatant inconsistency makes a mockery of the judicial system as well. And to take it further that makes a mockery of the democracy we are supposed the have in the country.

On the implementation of BEE, it is nothing more than legalised corruption in it's worst form, and if your'e not part of the Patronage Network, you don't benefit all that much from it. (By adding additional Bs in front of it doesn't really solve the problem.) The majority is not part of this patronage network, and this is a contributing factor in Pissing them off, quite understandably.


.....or have we forgotten the cries for nationalisation post 1994. Its not perfect but certainly better than the alternative ..... dont you think

These calls for nationalisation have not dissipated by any means. Malema built his following on exactly that. The fact that he was kicked out by the ANC was not for the BS reasons stated, but that he stated it so clearly and loudly, and that caused embarrassment for the current power elite. A fair number of them still want it dearly, but they can't say it out too loudly, because of it would scare off foreign investors. And a part of their "revenue stream" is made up from mostly western money. This might change in the future as the West is struggling at the moment, and China isn't so much.

Just my opinion of someone that grew up during apartheid, saw the gross misuse of power applied during this period, and now see exactly the same pattern developing all over again, just with different players. With one inevitable conclusion - revolution of the masses against the elite. And seeing that I personally is seen by the majority as part of that elite, I'll probably see my arse in the process.

 

[herr bmw]

so im reading the rich white people,yes majority of the white people left in sa might be rich,but i have seen alot of africian,indian,coloured cultures also climb the ladder,and can be classed as rich,and i dont mean goverment officials,but hard working people.

a bussiness was burnt down,white owned,how many other peoples jobs were lost due to the riots?now a africian worker sits with out a job because some one else couldnt go about things in a orderly manner.

have protests/marches,but do them in a civilised manner

another thing that pisses me off is that you see white and black beggers at robots,and some of the black guys actually try and sell stuff to generate a income will the white guy just stands there begging,i would rather buy a piece of junk from a black guy,as he has tried to do something to make money than give it to a white guy that justs stands there and expects a free hand out

guys we all point fingers,but remember there are three pointing back at you,