Captain_Stealth
Well-known member
Have you considered LS swap. It’s small. Light and able to produce good HP
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Read the WELCOME ALL BMWFANATICS post.
BMW i8 Race Car Build
- Thread starter Marco-Swanepoel
- Start date
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Look reality is that BMW doesn't make a car that meets these needs which is why the suggestions of either purpose built cars you proposed or other brands are coming up.
Can a well balanced BMW hillclimb and track car be built? Yes! But alot more easily using virtually any other BMW model than the i8 for the reasons mentioned already.
I doubt that E60 was really a twin turbo - it is gumtree after all. Maybe it was twin turbo but it was an LS and the guy was referring to V10 as a descriptor? The only cars anyone knows about are supercharged ones and those are less than a handful. The packaging in the M5 and M6 makes it incredibly difficult to get a turbo setup right... besides which, your resesarch should surely have revealed the otherwise fragile nature of the platform.
The 'movement' you see to V motors is probably not driven by the forces you think. Correlation =/= causation. You are trading one sort of packaging issue for another IMHO
It seems like you're comparing apples with oranges with some of the examples and dramatically underestimating the complexity of getting these platforms working. In fact I can't think of many other threads across the internet where the OP is doing a 'simple' swap from a v6 NA to a v8TT, or transverse to longitudinal, or various brands of engine, or between 1000 and 2000hp whilst looking at 500hp as too little.
Again, what cars are you used to driving that you think a car with 500hp and very lightweight is going to be boring? Or that a car with 80% of its weight at the back (like you're likely to end up with with the i8) but tons of power is going to work out as anything but a drag car? Maybe I am not understanding the context of your abilities or your preferences.
We complain about how BMW should have fitted that engine (or N54 or B58 or even a B48) into the car - but they have the resources (engineering and R&D) to make those models, designs, prototypes and mistakes along the way. IMHO you're trying to do what might be a 20M+ Euro piece of R&D work (which BMW probably attempted and found not to be feasible on the platform), Instead of teams of engineers working on this, it is going to be done by you in your brother in law's engineering shop. Like I say, ACS also tried with the B58 unsuccessfully. There are hundreds of englishmen in britain with these kinds of projects in their sheds - and thousands more with kit cars where they have unrealistic goals.
IMHO you should be more concerned about getting any kind of alternative engine to a) fit and b) run and drive at all into the i8 and then worrying about 1000hp right now.
Everyone lies on the internet - about costs, about power, about reliability - Hang around guys with GT-Rs and see what real costs are to get a reliable 2000hp out of the drivetrain (even detuned to 1500hp) and with what fuel and compromises. There are cults built around things like the 2JZ and F20C and LS, 1UZ, SR20, RB25, K20, B18C etc that all have their own pieces of groupthink/misinformation surrounding them. None of these engines will manage to defy the laws of physics.
Ultimately it is your R1M to spend (and I think you will spend more). Just think carefully and realistically about things.
Can a well balanced BMW hillclimb and track car be built? Yes! But alot more easily using virtually any other BMW model than the i8 for the reasons mentioned already.
I doubt that E60 was really a twin turbo - it is gumtree after all. Maybe it was twin turbo but it was an LS and the guy was referring to V10 as a descriptor? The only cars anyone knows about are supercharged ones and those are less than a handful. The packaging in the M5 and M6 makes it incredibly difficult to get a turbo setup right... besides which, your resesarch should surely have revealed the otherwise fragile nature of the platform.
The 'movement' you see to V motors is probably not driven by the forces you think. Correlation =/= causation. You are trading one sort of packaging issue for another IMHO
It seems like you're comparing apples with oranges with some of the examples and dramatically underestimating the complexity of getting these platforms working. In fact I can't think of many other threads across the internet where the OP is doing a 'simple' swap from a v6 NA to a v8TT, or transverse to longitudinal, or various brands of engine, or between 1000 and 2000hp whilst looking at 500hp as too little.
Again, what cars are you used to driving that you think a car with 500hp and very lightweight is going to be boring? Or that a car with 80% of its weight at the back (like you're likely to end up with with the i8) but tons of power is going to work out as anything but a drag car? Maybe I am not understanding the context of your abilities or your preferences.
We complain about how BMW should have fitted that engine (or N54 or B58 or even a B48) into the car - but they have the resources (engineering and R&D) to make those models, designs, prototypes and mistakes along the way. IMHO you're trying to do what might be a 20M+ Euro piece of R&D work (which BMW probably attempted and found not to be feasible on the platform), Instead of teams of engineers working on this, it is going to be done by you in your brother in law's engineering shop. Like I say, ACS also tried with the B58 unsuccessfully. There are hundreds of englishmen in britain with these kinds of projects in their sheds - and thousands more with kit cars where they have unrealistic goals.
IMHO you should be more concerned about getting any kind of alternative engine to a) fit and b) run and drive at all into the i8 and then worrying about 1000hp right now.
Everyone lies on the internet - about costs, about power, about reliability - Hang around guys with GT-Rs and see what real costs are to get a reliable 2000hp out of the drivetrain (even detuned to 1500hp) and with what fuel and compromises. There are cults built around things like the 2JZ and F20C and LS, 1UZ, SR20, RB25, K20, B18C etc that all have their own pieces of groupthink/misinformation surrounding them. None of these engines will manage to defy the laws of physics.
Ultimately it is your R1M to spend (and I think you will spend more). Just think carefully and realistically about things.
Chrism135i
Member
doing the swap on the i8 would probably need to be as extreme as this build by [font=Roboto, sans-serif]Quentin Boylan[/font].
http://www.speedhunters.com/2020/05/this-is-what-they-mean-by-built-not-bought/
http://www.speedhunters.com/2020/05/this-is-what-they-mean-by-built-not-bought/
Marco-Swanepoel
Active member
Chrism135i said:
Yes it's the same thing I have spoken to Quentin about the build
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
I wouldn't shun the S54.
It is a tried and tested engine, with countless manufacturers supporting race programs for the engine. It is still used by many race teams today in many platforms. There are BMW M4 racecars that run the S54 instead of the S55 / N54. There are even Midengine S54 cars.
In the USA, they are driving 1400hp turbo S54's reliably.
But from what I have read so far, am starting to think OP has his mind dead set on the V10 and nothing anyone says will sway his decision. Which one can respect. If you have the money and the skill to do such a job, then go for it. Greatness is achieved by risk and a little bit of thinking out the box. But there is a reason why Twin Turbo variants of V8 and V10 M engines are rarely used in BMW chassis. Space and reliability.
Anyway... video of S54 mid engined M4 racecar for attention.
[video=youtube]
It is a tried and tested engine, with countless manufacturers supporting race programs for the engine. It is still used by many race teams today in many platforms. There are BMW M4 racecars that run the S54 instead of the S55 / N54. There are even Midengine S54 cars.
In the USA, they are driving 1400hp turbo S54's reliably.
But from what I have read so far, am starting to think OP has his mind dead set on the V10 and nothing anyone says will sway his decision. Which one can respect. If you have the money and the skill to do such a job, then go for it. Greatness is achieved by risk and a little bit of thinking out the box. But there is a reason why Twin Turbo variants of V8 and V10 M engines are rarely used in BMW chassis. Space and reliability.
Anyway... video of S54 mid engined M4 racecar for attention.
[video=youtube]
Marco-Swanepoel
Active member
I'm not that set on the V10 the V8 is my main option now
I have no problem with the S54 I just think it's too long but, I'll have to see the difference in length between the S54 and the S63tu
The s54 should be a much lighter motor, that's also a big plus.
Even is the South African racing scene the S54 has great success.
Before everyone got supercar fever Ricky Giannoccaro dominate the GH Extreme Super car series with his S54 power E46 M3 and before that it was Sav speed with his E36 M3.
So I do have allot of respect for the platform but, I'm kinda leaning towards the V8 as I think the S54's days are over.
I bothers me that there are so many S54 race cars for sale why is everyone selling these cars?
@"TurboLlew"
The obsession with +1000hp is the fact that most of the top Hillclimb cars in SA is at or above that figure now and if this car is only going to be ready in 2021/22 then we need to be on point what it's first race.
Current top cars in SA
Both Reghard and Fraco's GTR's are pushing +-1600hp and are capable of over 2000hp
Pieter Zeelie's MR2 has 830HP and weighs only 1020KG
I don't have the spec on Paulo Loureiro BMW please someone post!
So building an i8 with 500hp that weighs +-1300KG is not going to cut it.
I understand that there is an huge difference between building an road legal car and a competitive race car.
Race car
Buy an existing race car (Radical SR8/RXC) and just fit the i8 body over it.
Question is
Do I swop out the motor for an BMW motor just to say it's BMW powered?
Road legal
I'll go with the S63tu and spend R2m and 5 years to get all the electronics sorted and then just dump the whole project so let's forget about this!
View attachment 7
View attachment 8
I have no problem with the S54 I just think it's too long but, I'll have to see the difference in length between the S54 and the S63tu
The s54 should be a much lighter motor, that's also a big plus.
Even is the South African racing scene the S54 has great success.
Before everyone got supercar fever Ricky Giannoccaro dominate the GH Extreme Super car series with his S54 power E46 M3 and before that it was Sav speed with his E36 M3.
So I do have allot of respect for the platform but, I'm kinda leaning towards the V8 as I think the S54's days are over.
I bothers me that there are so many S54 race cars for sale why is everyone selling these cars?
@"TurboLlew"
The obsession with +1000hp is the fact that most of the top Hillclimb cars in SA is at or above that figure now and if this car is only going to be ready in 2021/22 then we need to be on point what it's first race.
Current top cars in SA
Both Reghard and Fraco's GTR's are pushing +-1600hp and are capable of over 2000hp
Pieter Zeelie's MR2 has 830HP and weighs only 1020KG
I don't have the spec on Paulo Loureiro BMW please someone post!
So building an i8 with 500hp that weighs +-1300KG is not going to cut it.
I understand that there is an huge difference between building an road legal car and a competitive race car.
Race car
Buy an existing race car (Radical SR8/RXC) and just fit the i8 body over it.
Question is
Do I swop out the motor for an BMW motor just to say it's BMW powered?
Road legal
I'll go with the S63tu and spend R2m and 5 years to get all the electronics sorted and then just dump the whole project so let's forget about this!
View attachment 7
View attachment 8
Attachments
Marco-Swanepoel
Active member
This is one of the fastest cars in SA and its an self built car, compact light car with an V6 Turbo fitted in the back
Zwastkops 1:01.8
Simola Hillclimb 40.9s
ESF Hillclimb 34.999s
Charl Joubert has the same formula and ran a 39.5 in 2018 Simola Hillclimb
Nikhil
Honorary ///Member
Since money is just not a factor in this build - S54 billet block Vac motorsport -S54 3.5l stroker kit high compression forged internals - cpc billet plenum - twin G30 garret turbos - Vac Stage 3 cylinder head - fuel system setup for full eth Samsonas sequential gearbox - Simson racing dry sump setup -Maxx ecu Rev to 9000rpm and making over a 1000hp all day everyday not to mentioned lighter than any factory block setup
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
What Nikhil said.
I have a Vac built motor and their workmanship is second to none. They build some of the winning hillclimb BMW cars around the world.
Speak to Tony about the project you want and I am sure he will advise better than anyone here.
http://www.vacmotorsports.com/
email is [email protected]
I have a Vac built motor and their workmanship is second to none. They build some of the winning hillclimb BMW cars around the world.
Speak to Tony about the project you want and I am sure he will advise better than anyone here.
http://www.vacmotorsports.com/
email is [email protected]
TurboLlew
Honorary ///Member
Marco-Swanepoel said:
S54: 149kg
S63Tu : 229kg
The S54 is long but the S63tu is going to be wide (apart from the packaging and weight associated with the cooling etc). Either way I think your question is answered. Expect the billet version to be a lot lighter than even 149kg.
What you want to do and I think what people initially were advising on was a car you could use for track days and hillclimbs with a BMW engine and the rest of the car to otherwise work as normal. You have changed as the thread has gone on to wanting to compete at the top levels of hillclimb specifically. As far as I know none of those cars or those you mention are road legal (not really anyway). I actually don't know if any of this advice is actually going to be useful in that context, but if you want a BMW motor in it, then the advice from Nikhil and Crash Nemesis are likely to be the right route to follow.
Radical idea? With the radical motor, I can see you pulling your hair out once its done because after all that work with 600 to 1000mm variances in size, it is still going to be a 500hp car with questionable chassis balance and now more weight.There are more enjoyable ways to burn money
Anyway you seem to be speaking to the right guys now and continue to update on the progress/research/build
VictorMike
///Member
So the tables you posted show GTR dominance...
https://www.autotrader.co.za/cars-for-sale/nissan/gt-r?pagenumber=2&sortorder=PriceLow
https://www.autotrader.co.za/cars-for-sale/nissan/gt-r?pagenumber=2&sortorder=PriceLow
Captain_Stealth
Well-known member
If cash is not a problem then just build the s85. S54 tech is 15 years old. The s85 sound is truly unique and the only Bmw v10 made. If the power is not enough add some ball bearing turbos or a nice supercharger. No replacement for displacement just remember that. The same mods on a s54 with the same boost level the s85 v10 will destroy the s54.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
Captain_Stealth said:
Captain_Stealth, may I direct your attention to HPF and another little company called Maximum PSI.
Whilst you may think a turbo charged s85 will destroy a similarly turbocharged s54, I beg to differ.
Maximum PSI is famous for making and selling a 1175whp S54, which holds the record for the strongest M3 engine ever dyno'd. The record stands as recent as May 2019. Said engine also makes use of before mentioned Vac Motorsports parts. That dyno number is also measured at the wheels. The entire setup is compact and fits easily in an engine bay, and is street and race proven. Pretty much what you want for a hillclimb beast.
I am well aware that the highest dyno figure a Turbo'd S85 made was about 1800hp, but this was measured at the crank on an engine Dyno. Once you add drivetrain loss, the added weight of the heavier engine and the issue of figuring out the fitment due to the shear size of adding snails to the engine, you begin to introduce problems that need special fabrication. Now the reason why the S54 was suggested was due to a number of positives that reside in it's favor, and not just because of power. It is lighter, it is more compact, and it has many years of development by actual race teams that race in real world events such as the Nurburgring 24hr and VLN series. There is support for the engine and parts are relatively cheap and readily available. The S85 on the other hand has a handful of tuners that are yet to figure out a compact kit that doesn't spill out the top of the car and is race legal. Do you want that headache for an extra 200hp at the wheels? Is 1170hp not enough? Because there are guys winning hillclimb events with 500hp S54 cars.
See the attached below video for an example of a Vac Motorsports built 500hp+ NA s54 for hillclimb. This specific car has been very successful in the rear wheel drive class in Europe, winning many hillclimb events.
[video=youtube]
Again... I suggest OP speak to the pro's at Vac Motorsports. They do this for a living and will point you in the right direction for your specific build, as opposed to listening to us know it alls arguing over a forum.
Captain_Stealth
Well-known member
Crash_Nemesis said:
What I said is exact same mods same boost s85 will make more power. I didn’t say anything about engine weight etc. go look at the drift works e46 with the s85 swap. The s85 with no mods makes 500hp on the flywheel
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Crash_Nemesis
///Member
@"Captain_Stealth"
And that is why your suggestion on using the S85 is misguided.
I am well aware of Phill Morrison's S85 V10 e46 M3 build. And if you watched his build, he tells you to never do the swap. Look at all the custom fabrication he has had to do to get a stock V10, no turbos, to fit into the e46. He has had to cut the front subframe and compromise stiffness, develop a new steering wrack and change front suspension geometry. He has had to also cut the oil pan, modify the oil pump and fabricate a new one to fit said steering wrack. He has also had to use a very very expensive ECU from Cosworth to get the car to work. In his own words, there are easier more powerful options than going with the S85. But he does it because it is a challenge and it is for himself. He will never do it for a customer.
And that is why your suggestion on using the S85 is misguided.
I am well aware of Phill Morrison's S85 V10 e46 M3 build. And if you watched his build, he tells you to never do the swap. Look at all the custom fabrication he has had to do to get a stock V10, no turbos, to fit into the e46. He has had to cut the front subframe and compromise stiffness, develop a new steering wrack and change front suspension geometry. He has had to also cut the oil pan, modify the oil pump and fabricate a new one to fit said steering wrack. He has also had to use a very very expensive ECU from Cosworth to get the car to work. In his own words, there are easier more powerful options than going with the S85. But he does it because it is a challenge and it is for himself. He will never do it for a customer.
Marco-Swanepoel
Active member
Crash_Nemesis said:
Thanks I'll get in contact with him!
TurboLlew said:
I know that's how it started out, I just know myself it will go from an road legal car doing a few Hillclimbs to trying to be the fastest bmw track car in SA yes it will take 5 - 10 years to develop and it will probably 'neven come close to the times current cars today run that I can buy for R500k but it's something I want to build and enjoy.
I spoke to a guy that has an Radical and chopping that up is not worth it the car can do 59s around Zwartkops because of everything working 100% together and it took years of tweaking.
I also had an chat to SAV Speed he started building his full carbon F30 race car in 2014 and he is still developing it!
So at this stage every comment and little advice I get really helps!
At this stage it's between the S54 and the S63tu the S85 just seems to be more problems I don't need
