330d power on hot days

DieselFan

Honorary ///Member
The way I was thinking is from the pressure converter it splits into two. One line goes to the vacuum container one runs towards the turbo actuator and links with the other hose coming from the vacuum container. Joined by a 2 to 1 connector. I guess one would have to test in a real world scenario.
 

SandmanEnters

New member
DieselFan said:
The way I was thinking is from the pressure converter it splits into two. One line goes to the vacuum container one runs towards the turbo actuator and links with the other hose coming from the vacuum container. Joined by a 2 to 1 connector. I guess one would have to test in a real world scenario.

I see what you meant now, apologies. I think then the problem would be that if the reservoir is located after the PC, there would be no control over the vacuum in the reservoir? If I understand correctly the pressure converter is signaled by the ECU to "suck" vacuum into the reservoir, so I'm not sure if this would work when the reservoir is connected after the PC?

What happened to the days when I preferred Hatfield Square to theoretical turbo diesel mechanics on a Friday :roflol:
 

Andy1GP

///Member
First thing I do when buying a turbo diesel is remove the intercooler. The amount of gunk I've seen build up between the IC and aircon radiator is scary. It makes a substantial difference to keeping EGT's down.

Not really a power gain but more a power sustain. The car doesn't feel like it's "heatsoaking" as much as the efficiency of the IC is restored.

With the IC removed I also clean the boost intake temp sensor situated on the "up stream" boost pipe going toward the EGR throttle body part. That seems to help a little with economy as well.

Needless to say the boost pipes and cooler gets cleaned while out.

After watching a MCM episode where they mythbusted painting the IC black I decided to do the same. Static cooling was improved but when in motion there was no difference. So if you're going to do lots of stop start traffic I highly recommend painting your IC black. The static efficiency is much better at keeping EGT's down.

Other than that I just want to add that temperature does have a huge impact on performance. We feel it in the aeroplanes as well. On the wing as well as the engines. When we De-Rate thrust (aka assumed temperature method) it becomes clear how much performance you lose with a 15-20 deg C increase. I haven't done the number crunching but 10% less power is possible in some instances.

Hope this helps :)
 

SandmanEnters

New member
Thanks for the info I appreciate it. Black intercooler I would never have thought of, but will look into it definitely. I think an upgrade is probably in order coz I cant handle the performance and consumption spikes. Very frustating! I will look ino the sensor as well, thanks alot. I have recently cleared out the garden behind the intercooler:biglol:
 

netercol

New member
the way i understood it is that the vacuum output from the dedicated vacuum pump on the front of the camshaft is variable, i suppose dependant on speed.. so the reservoir is there to smooth out the pulsations and "store" (for lack of a better way to put it) a bit of vacuum so the actuator receives a more or less steady and predictable vacuum level..

without it the actuator sees a fluctuating vacuum signal which makes it movement unpredictable , and i suppose the ecu struggles to peg the boost where it wants it..

its quite a elegant solution to control a vacuum operated turbo on a engine that does not generate vacuum by design :=):
 

SandmanEnters

New member
netercol said:
the way i understood it is that the vacuum output from the dedicated vacuum pump on the front of the camshaft is variable, i suppose dependant on speed.. so the reservoir is there to smooth out the pulsations and "store" (for lack of a better way to put it) a bit of vacuum so the actuator receives a more or less steady and predictable vacuum level..

without it the actuator sees a fluctuating vacuum signal which makes it movement unpredictable , and i suppose the ecu struggles to peg the boost where it wants it..

its quite a elegant solution to control a vacuum operated turbo on a engine that does not generate vacuum by design :=):

Hey man, hope you're well. Thanks for taking the time to explain the process in more detail, I appreciate it. These engines really are awesome feats of engineering. Was a hell of a learning curve the past few months though! Lovin it
 

BillyBob

Active member
Hotter intake charge temperature does make a difference, as Andy has noted... less dense air makes less power...

But that doesn't tell the whole story as to why turbo engines (and especially Diesel ones) suffer in hot conditions.

Diesel engine management doesn't work quite the same as petrol because of the different technologies employed... important differences between the two for dealing with heat are as follows:

Petrol engines have knock sensors, while diesels don't (as diesels "knock" all the time during normal running).
Petrol engines have adjustable ignition timing, which can be altered on the fly, IE - retarded when the knock sensor gets tickled.
If a petrol engine runs hot, and starts knocking, it's likely running lean - so once the knock sensor is triggered, not only is timing retarded, but fueling is enriched. Richer means it's running cooler, IE More petrol makes for a cooler burn, so the fuel actually cools down the cylinders and thus the engine. Both these factors rob a bit of power, but help the engine survive longer.

Diesels on the other hand, don't have ignition timing control per se - some will have heat chambers in the intake for starting the burn, but for the most part they're reliant on compression to initiate the burn. This means it can't manipulate timing as well.
Diesel has a lower burn rate, but is more compressible, which means you can get more of it in there.
The more diesel you add, the hotter the burn cycle (the opposite of petrol) - so theoretically, you could melt your motor if you add enough diesel.

So, with these factors in mind, a turbo diesel engine becomes a slightly more volatile creature than your average turbo petrol engine.

Their maps are tuned more conservatively, for very high boost, and moderate fueling, and have a load of safety parameters built in for reigning things in when ambient temperatures go hot.
Instead of using a knock sensor, the ECU looks at MAF airflow rate + relative intake temperature, MAP sensor pressures + charged air temperature, and most importantly, the EGT's (exhaust gas temperatures) coming out of the engine.

The most important scenarios based on the above:
For starters, obviously, the base map is selected based on the relative temperature and barometric pressure seen by the MAF.
If EGT's spike at any point, fueling and boost get cut down until EGT's resume within a safe range.
If there's a huge discrepancy between MAF temperature and charge temperature, boost gets dropped until that temperature differential falls within parameters.

So that means, while viscous fans and air conditioners do sap some power in summertime, the biggest factor in the event of sluggish performance would be a non-optimum running state in any of sensors or the charge tract.

Here are some things to look at to ensure a happy & nippy diesel in summer:

1. The MAF needs to be running 100% perfectly - if yours is older than a few years, then consider replacing it. They're not too expensive from Bosch directly. It measures the flow of air, and the ambient temperature / barometric pressure / humidity, thus controlling all of your compensation factors for altitude and atmospheric conditions.
2. The MAP sensor similarly needs to be working accurately - they don't really degrade like MAFs, but the occasional cleaning doesn't hurt, as being covered in caked-on oil and muck will throw off their readings somewhat.
3. EGT's don't really die either - but it won't hurt to do a check / calibration test.
4. As Andy has said, clean the intercooler - or fit a bigger one, like the stock N54 unit or the likes - everything you can do to cool your charge temperatures as effectively as possible, means that both the MAP sensor and EGT sensor will see cooler temperatures, which means more performance before they call a halt to your fun.
5. Methanol/water injection is handy for making more power, as well as keeping your EGT's down due to the inherent cooling effects... use it wisely though, as too much of it will overspin and prematurely kill your turbo.

Hope that helps.
 

SandmanEnters

New member
Wow Billybob, thats a brilliantly detailed explanation, thank you for taking he time to type that up for us:praise:

My EGR was one of the first things I blanked off. I assume that has, among many benefits, also the effect of upping th the EGT unfortunately. Not worth all the carbon build up everywhere too keep it connected though, I believe?
I cleaned the MAF last night with MAF cleaner, so hopefully that will help. I did the MAP a few weeks back with carb cleaner. I have never done the charge air temp sensor, which I assume is the one Andy referred to thats located on the charged air pipe betwen the IC and the EGR. Would I use MAF cleaner for this one as well? Also, what can I use to clean out the inside of the IC in he meantime until I upgrade?

Another thing, I dont have a turbo breather installed. It seems someone before me has decided against upgrading to the vortex one and decided to just take it out completely, so its only the housing. Is this something I should look at sorting out? I have read that BMW have stopped putting them in at all in later models anyway. I don't have any heavy oil build up at the MAF housing so I guess its not a problem then?

I appreciate you clearing up the fact that he ECU actually limits the boost control and injection when it picks up temp spikes. Makes sense because it certainly feels like a more substantual power loss than one would expect simply from having less dense air fed to the combustion chambers.

This forum rocks guys, thank you for all the advice.! :thumbs:
 

BillyBob

Active member
SandmanEnters said:
Wow Billybob, thats a brilliantly detailed explanation, thank you for taking he time to type that up for us:praise:

My EGR was one of the first things I blanked off. I assume that has, among many benefits, also the effect of upping th the EGT unfortunately. Not worth all the carbon build up everywhere too keep it connected though, I believe?
I cleaned the MAF last night with MAF cleaner, so hopefully that will help. I did the MAP a few weeks back with carb cleaner. I have never done the charge air temp sensor, which I assume is the one Andy referred to thats located on the charged air pipe betwen the IC and the EGR. Would I use MAF cleaner for this one as well? Also, what can I use to clean out the inside of the IC in he meantime until I upgrade?

Another thing, I dont have a turbo breather installed. It seems someone before me has decided against upgrading to the vortex one and decided to just take it out completely, so its only the housing. Is this something I should look at sorting out? I have read that BMW have stopped putting them in at all in later models anyway. I don't have any heavy oil build up at the MAF housing so I guess its not a problem then?

I appreciate you clearing up the fact that he ECU actually limits the boost control and injection when it picks up temp spikes. Makes sense because it certainly feels like a more substantual power loss than one would expect simply from having less dense air fed to the combustion chambers.

This forum rocks guys, thank you for all the advice.! :thumbs:

Ah, so charge temp sensor is a separate unit on the BMW's - my bad. I thought it would be incorporated into the MAP sensor like in a few other applications. So that would be another point to inspect and clean on its own.

Yes, a bit of MAF cleaner or carb spray (spookpis!) should work just fine on that.

Blanking off the EGR doesn't have much of an effect on EGT's - provided it's mapped properly to compensate for the lack of recirculation - otherwise, it really just takes a while longer for the car to warm up to operating temperature without it.

EGR delete makes for less to potentially go wrong or get clogged up - so it gets my vote.

And just remember - if all of these things check out, and are performing optimally, and your car still runs poorly on a day that's running close to 40 degrees ambient temperature - your DME is doing it to help preserve the engine. You can tune around it to an extent, but those safety parameters are there for good reason.

Oh, and also look at a decat/DPF job if you haven't already done so. A clogged exhaust tract creates backpressure which will make your turbo and engine work harder to pump out the exhaust gasses, leading to premature wear and unnecessarily raising your EGT's & causing the DME to pull boost and fueling.

The principle of an engine being a an oversized air pump always applies... especially in forced induction engines, where less restriction = less pumping losses = more horsepower & better longevity.
 

SandmanEnters

New member
BillyBob said:
SandmanEnters said:
Wow Billybob, thats a brilliantly detailed explanation, thank you for taking he time to type that up for us:praise:

My EGR was one of the first things I blanked off. I assume that has, among many benefits, also the effect of upping th the EGT unfortunately. Not worth all the carbon build up everywhere too keep it connected though, I believe?
I cleaned the MAF last night with MAF cleaner, so hopefully that will help. I did the MAP a few weeks back with carb cleaner. I have never done the charge air temp sensor, which I assume is the one Andy referred to thats located on the charged air pipe betwen the IC and the EGR. Would I use MAF cleaner for this one as well? Also, what can I use to clean out the inside of the IC in he meantime until I upgrade?

Another thing, I dont have a turbo breather installed. It seems someone before me has decided against upgrading to the vortex one and decided to just take it out completely, so its only the housing. Is this something I should look at sorting out? I have read that BMW have stopped putting them in at all in later models anyway. I don't have any heavy oil build up at the MAF housing so I guess its not a problem then?

I appreciate you clearing up the fact that he ECU actually limits the boost control and injection when it picks up temp spikes. Makes sense because it certainly feels like a more substantual power loss than one would expect simply from having less dense air fed to the combustion chambers.

This forum rocks guys, thank you for all the advice.! :thumbs:

Ah, so charge temp sensor is a separate unit on the BMW's - my bad. I thought it would be incorporated into the MAP sensor like in a few other applications. So that would be another point to inspect and clean on its own.

Yes, a bit of MAF cleaner or carb spray (spookpis!) should work just fine on that.

Blanking off the EGR doesn't have much of an effect on EGT's - provided it's mapped properly to compensate for the lack of recirculation - otherwise, it really just takes a while longer for the car to warm up to operating temperature without it.

EGR delete makes for less to potentially go wrong or get clogged up - so it gets my vote.

And just remember - if all of these things check out, and are performing optimally, and your car still runs poorly on a day that's running close to 40 degrees ambient temperature - your DME is doing it to help preserve the engine. You can tune around it to an extent, but those safety parameters are there for good reason.

Oh, and also look at a decat/DPF job if you haven't already done so. A clogged exhaust tract creates backpressure which will make your turbo and engine work harder to pump out the exhaust gasses, leading to premature wear and unnecessarily raising your EGT's & causing the DME to pull boost and fueling.

The principle of an engine being a an oversized air pump always applies... especially in forced induction engines, where less restriction = less pumping losses = more horsepower & better longevity.

I have indeed done a decat, and Im currently running with a racechip pro2, which is pure brilliance considering the performance gained and the fact that's it a simple plug and play. Thank you fot all the info, I sincerely appreciate it! :=):
 

BillyBob

Active member
DieselFan said:
BillyBob said:
And now you're selling your RaceChip... :nonono:
A man's got to do what he's got to do, unfortunately this means parting with toys.

You don't have to justify it bud - I didn't mean it like that.

It was simply a show of sympathy - having to sell something that you so clearly enjoy absolutely sucks...
 

DieselFan

Honorary ///Member
BillyBob said:
DieselFan said:
BillyBob said:
And now you're selling your RaceChip... :nonono:
A man's got to do what he's got to do, unfortunately this means parting with toys.

You don't have to justify it bud - I didn't mean it like that.

It was simply a show of sympathy - having to sell something that you so clearly enjoy absolutely sucks...
Yeah not my racechip but I feel for the guy too :( . It sucks having to part with something that brings you enjoyment.
 

SandmanEnters

New member
BillyBob said:
DieselFan said:
BillyBob said:
And now you're selling your RaceChip... :nonono:
A man's got to do what he's got to do, unfortunately this means parting with toys.

You don't have to justify it bud - I didn't mean it like that.

It was simply a show of sympathy - having to sell something that you so clearly enjoy absolutely sucks...

I know right:thumbdo: I do appreciate the sympathy though, thanks guys. On the brightside, now I can save up for a bit and get a remap from celtic. Ive heard some good things of their work

EDIT: Whats even more aggrevating is I m gonna have to sell my graphics card as well. I can drive without a chip, but I can't be batman with onboard graphics
 
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