discussion Non-BMW advice

[GravityLee]

Little tired of the usual BMW fare and keen on trying something new. Not interested in paying Toby tax.

Which of the two below would result in less pain and suffering, being used as a daily, with about 20000km p/a?

I know both would have laughable resale value so let’s remove that from the equation. Ease and cost of maintenance, as well as reliability, are considerations.

Jaguar F-Pace SVR for sale in Bedfordview - ID: 27168551

Used 2021 Jaguar F-Pace SVR For Sale - R 1 349 950 - ID: 27168551

www.autotrader.co.za

Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio Q4 for sale in Somerset West - ID: 27344236

Used 2021 Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio Q4 For Sale - R 1 299 900 - ID: 27344236

www.autotrader.co.za

 

[Eust]

Wouldn't look at the Alfa - Jag is way more established and the value for money is top.
That specific one, with that mileage, no brainer.

 

[MR_Y]

My heart says Alfa
My brain says pay the Toby Tax

However, jokes aside, an X3 M40i or a used X3 M would be the best options...

 

[Yulz9081]

The Jag is a definitely a no brainer between the 2. That is X3 money for something closer/on par to the X5 in terms of size and luxury IMO.
I drove the SVR many years ago at the launch, it is such an epic SUV and very underrated.

The F-Pace 30d in S guise or R-Dynamic (Can't remember which is the highest trim level) was a serious contender and actually my first option for the longest time when I was shopping around a couple years ago but the X3 with the B58 stole my heart and everything else fell away.

 

[GravityLee]

Also favoring the SVR. Any comments on reliability? Does it use the same engine as in the RRS SVR?

 

[GravityLee]

My heart says Alfa
My brain says pay the Toby Tax

However, jokes aside, an X3 M40i or a used X3 M would be the best options...

The toby tax is too high, pushing me into cars which are too old to consider.

I love the drive of the X3 M40i but just can’t live with that interior in a daily.

 

[FILV]

This is a tough one

On the exterior the Jag looks worth the price it is selling for. Seems you would have more pride and admiration waking up to it every time. However the interior is not that pleasing as one would expect, visually.

The Alfa on the other hand from all the reviews i have read and watched, must drive like dream, Seems to always put a smile one ones face with its amazing saloon like driving dynamics.Pity it snot the face;ift. Lifts the dullness of the look.

Go test drive both and see which one 'talks' to you more

 

[TurboLlew]

If it is just between these two then the QV is the one for me...

Both of them are epic if you take them out on a test drive. The joy of longer term ownership and daily niggles with Jag is what you take for granted when dealing with Porsche and BMW. This is just knowing quite a few that own the NON SVR F Pace and sound like they are in an abusive relationship with Jaguar and the vehicle itself. It really depends on whether the dealer closest to you is any good as well. That said the root problem with both (to differing degrees) is that you have to deal with Jaguar and FCA as part of owning them...

Beware all these brands (some of the German's included) that trade on their 'perceived' quality and designed to look good in pics. Use your 5 senses... and 6th...

The Alfa QV resale after initial hit won't be bad, but they are going to be VERY thirsty, require very expensive maintenance out of plan (as with any performance vehicle) for brake discs/pads and to give you an idea the oil that Alfa uses in my 4C is about 2.5x the price of the oil that BMW uses in my F90 (Petronas Selenia Quadrifoglio vs. BMW/Shell). Dealer experience with Alfa in Bryanston has been good and they have techs that have even worked on classic Alfas there. Jag seems to specialise in telling you fairly severe noises "are normal for these cars"

The issues faced with the Giulia QV owners are largely electronics based but (apparently) mostly resovled. It's hard to say because both Jag and Alfa owners (as mentioned) are in varying degrees of abusive relationship and lie about these things/cope with alot

Ultimately there is a reason most end up with the BMW or Porsche (especially if after the performance side vs. the off-roading side of things).

 

[nabil_m_rs]

Hands down the F-Pace SVR.

Stelvio QV is a beautiful car, but that supercharged V8 in the SVR is in a league of its own. Its a very underrated suv and quite quick too. Its literally a Range Rover Sport SVR in a smaller and lighter body. You'll definitely enjoy it, JLR customer service is also quite brilliant. My dad raves about it everytime his SVR goes in for a service.

 

[nabil_m_rs]

Also favoring the SVR. Any comments on reliability? Does it use the same engine as in the RRS SVR?

Yep, same engine but detuned.

This has 405kw, while the old RR SVR will have 423kw. Weight is the significant difference though between the two and this will actually eat the RR alive. Everytime I go down to Durban, I always drive my dad's RR SVR and that Supercharged V8 is enough to make you addicted to the drive.

Big Guzzlers though, but worth it.

 

[TurboLlew]

JLR customer service is also quite brilliant. My dad raves about it everytime his SVR goes in for a service.

This must be the first time I have ever heard this comment about JLR

 

[GravityLee]

If it is just between these two then the QV is the one for me...

Both of them are epic if you take them out on a test drive. The joy of longer term ownership and daily niggles with Jag is what you take for granted when dealing with Porsche and BMW. This is just knowing quite a few that own the NON SVR F Pace and sound like they are in an abusive relationship with Jaguar and the vehicle itself. It really depends on whether the dealer closest to you is any good as well. That said the root problem with both (to differing degrees) is that you have to deal with Jaguar and FCA as part of owning them...

Beware all these brands (some of the German's included) that trade on their 'perceived' quality and designed to look good in pics. Use your 5 senses... and 6th...

The Alfa QV resale after initial hit won't be bad, but they are going to be VERY thirsty, require very expensive maintenance out of plan (as with any performance vehicle) for brake discs/pads and to give you an idea the oil that Alfa uses in my 4C is about 2.5x the price of the oil that BMW uses in my F90 (Petronas Selenia Quadrifoglio vs. BMW/Shell). Dealer experience with Alfa in Bryanston has been good and they have techs that have even worked on classic Alfas there. Jag seems to specialise in telling you fairly severe noises "are normal for these cars"

The issues faced with the Giulia QV owners are largely electronics based but (apparently) mostly resovled. It's hard to say because both Jag and Alfa owners (as mentioned) are in varying degrees of abusive relationship and lie about these things/cope with alot

Ultimately there is a reason most end up with the BMW or Porsche (especially if after the performance side vs. the off-roading side of things).

The "niggles" are what worries me, as I have a very low tolerance for this, and dealer convincing me that "they all do that" is not something I have a stomach for.

Let's face it, BMW service levels have been going down the toilet and I don't see it as a safe play anymore, more like Stockholm syndrome, hence willing to explore the JLR option. I do like the aesthetics of the interior, but will need some seat time to assess the perceived quality.

 

[GravityLee]

Hands down the F-Pace SVR.

Stelvio QV is a beautiful car, but that supercharged V8 in the SVR is in a league of its own. Its a very underrated suv and quite quick too. Its literally a Range Rover Sport SVR in a smaller and lighter body. You'll definitely enjoy it, JLR customer service is also quite brilliant. My dad raves about it everytime his SVR goes in for a service.

How long (time & mileage) has your dad had the RRS SVR? What's the reliability like, as well as the "niggles" Llew mentioned? Very little info locally in my research, most coming from UK & US which are very different both in terms of environment and service levels so not really meaningful comparisons.

 

[nabil_m_rs]

How long (time & mileage) has your dad had the RRS SVR? What's the reliability like, as well as the "niggles" Llew mentioned? Very little info locally in my research, most coming from UK & US which are very different both in terms of environment and service levels so not really meaningful comparisons.

So he’s owned the SVR since new from 2020 before lockdown. Mileage on it is currently just over 50k if I’m not mistaken now. He hasn’t had a single issue with it and hopefully he doesn’t have any with it. It’s been fairly reliable so far. The only thing he complains about is the fuel but he says it’s worth the bill when you put your foot down.

Prior to the SVR, he had the normal 2014 HSE Dynamic 5.0 supercharged which is the detuned 375kw version of the SVR but not so brutal. In other words, the M50i to the X5M. He did about 120k mileage on it before trading in for the svr and no issues at all.

I mean JLR are known for their issues, but also depends on how you take care of the car as well. My father is pretty passionate about his cars, always makes sure oils are changed and serviced in time.

Just a few pics of the SVR, it’s currently on Custom 23” Urban Automotive wheels imported all the way from the UK.

 

[MR_Y]

@Eust we are waiting for your X3M review so we can sway @GravityLee

 

[Solo Man]

May i suggest something entirely different? What about a Jaguar E-Pace EV? What are your requirements? If the car is going to be used around town then the Jag EV is the answer as it is quick (0-100 in 4,7s), is powerful enough and is quite nice inside. My son is selling his car (he is here in Durbanville) and will let it go for about R950k. Car has on i think between 50 and 60k kms, spotless inside and out. If you want pics and more info just pm me and i will gladly sort you out. Can even arrange a test drive any time you like. Believe me, EV's are soooo nice! Sorry man, see you are from Joburg. Saw the Somerset West advert and assumed you are from here.

 

[TBP88]

The "niggles" are what worries me, as I have a very low tolerance for this, and dealer convincing me that "they all do that" is not something I have a stomach for.

Let's face it, BMW service levels have been going down the toilet and I don't see it as a safe play anymore, more like Stockholm syndrome, hence willing to explore the JLR option. I do like the aesthetics of the interior, but will need some seat time to assess the perceived quality.

If niggles aren't for you I cannot see any universe where Alfa or Jag ownership will be fun.

 

[TBP88]

If niggles aren't for you I cannot see any universe where Alfa or Jag ownership will be fun.

This came off a bit dickish. Sorry!

But truth is, even the new stuff, it's still a small production run car vs (say) a macan or X3. Error checking an X3 is always gonna be easy because they sold probably an order of magnitude more cars - so 10x as many cars are likely to have had the same issue, on a Stelvio you might be the first person ever to have issue X. Add to that the parts bin is always leaner when production runs are smaller means you'll be forced to wait for things. Just in general I think for this sort of car there's a very strong incentive to just stick to "the devil you know".

 

[MR_Y]

This came off a bit dickish. Sorry!

But truth is, even the new stuff, it's still a small production run car vs (say) a macan or X3. Error checking an X3 is always gonna be easy because they sold probably an order of magnitude more cars - so 10x as many cars are likely to have had the same issue, on a Stelvio you might be the first person ever to have issue X. Add to that the parts bin is always leaner when production runs are smaller means you'll be forced to wait for things. Just in general I think for this sort of car there's a very strong incentive to just stick to "the devil you know".

💯

 

[GravityLee]

This came off a bit dickish. Sorry!

But truth is, even the new stuff, it's still a small production run car vs (say) a macan or X3. Error checking an X3 is always gonna be easy because they sold probably an order of magnitude more cars - so 10x as many cars are likely to have had the same issue, on a Stelvio you might be the first person ever to have issue X. Add to that the parts bin is always leaner when production runs are smaller means you'll be forced to wait for things. Just in general I think for this sort of car there's a very strong incentive to just stick to "the devil you know".

No, not at all, I get what you mean and I agree.

Thing is, I’m not sure that there will be any more “niggles” compared to what I’ve had with BMWs over the years - I feel a lot of this is legacy baggage, and when I speak to actual owners I don’t get a feeling of immense disappointment and regret (speaking of JLR owners I know - ive had a number of Alfas personally and know what to expect).

I’m particularly warm on the SVR, so will do some more in-depth research and drive one.

Macan doesn’t appeal at all so it would have to be a Cayenne if I go that route.