New M2 vs Cayman 718 GTS 4.0

[MR_Y]

Slight derail of this thread but interesting to see a detailed review of a new M240i vs a used 991 4S for the same money...

 

[TurboLlew]

Truth be told, to me the M240 looks about 100x better than the M2

Conservatively



Would absolutely go 911 personally though... even used 911 with the right boxes and engine over the more capable 718 in all likelihood

Slight derail of this thread but interesting to see a detailed review of a new M240i vs a used 991 4S for the same money...

 

[Nick]

Having never driven or even had the pleasure of sitting in a 911 - id still have the Porker Prancing Pony in my garage.
Even if it was broken, its just nice to look at.

PS - if anyone has a Porsche and are in JHB - PLZ PLZ PLZ take me for a drive !

 

[r0ckf1re]

8Y RS3 > M2


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[MR_Y]

8Y RS3 > M2


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Provocative

 

[VinceM]

GTS > M2 any day, in every way.


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Previous M2 CS said to be one of the best M cars…hens teeth though, only 1 for sale right now for two bars.


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[VinceM]

Most Bmw guys turn into Porsche owners if their budget allows..........just stating facts

Every BMW petrol head owner I know secretly wants a Porsche, especially the emergency edition (911)


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[realtrevor]

Porsche vs BMW discussions are always interesting, even though they're not direct rivals unless we're talking Cayenne vs X5. We always agree that a Porsche is a Porsche, it's a Sportscar from ground up, but when it's time to buy, a majority of people go for the M3 over a 911 and an M2 over a Cayman, because of many reasons.

 

[Eust]

Porsche vs BMW discussions are always interesting, even though they're not direct rivals unless we're talking Cayenne vs X5. We always agree that a Porsche is a Porsche, it's a Sportscar from ground up, but when it's time to buy, a majority of people go for the M3 over a 911 and an M2 over a Cayman, because of many reasons.

Yeah true.
People would honestly rather have a Porsche over a BMW, but you are comparing a 5yr+ old Porsche to a new BMW and people lean on the tech, ability to leverage the BMWs more ITO finance, dated interior relative to a new BMW ETC.

In my opinion, a Porsche is only worth it when it starts with GTx or has Turbo in the nomenclature, else I'll rather have an newer ///M car.

 

[TurboLlew]

So I feel like there was a brief anomaly when the G80 was launched and before 911 pricing was bumped up where the 911 NEW was less than the G80 was (of course not like for like performance at that point). This didn't last for very long - maybe 6-8 months.

I feel like around Kyalami anyway I saw a ton more Porsches (more than the Porsche track being across the road would suggest) and almost no G8x. I see many more M3s and M4s nowadays with the pricing actually now quite far apart on the 911 front.

Unfortunately in SA the market will always tend to normalise upwards on price, especially on the luxury goods side/those targeting HNWI... even though for that brief moment one would have hoped BMW was going to realign pricing to match Porsche LOL.

Reality I guess is past R1M 'if you want it you must pay' applies and the market enables this.

I am also not sure if you isolate the M3 vs entirety of the 911 lineup and M2 vs the entireity of the Boxter/Cayman market that this is actually true. I certainly see (in the last two generations of each anyway) many many more of the Porsches than I do of the BMWs. You can walk into a BMW dealership and there are M cars that have been sitting for months (to the degree they will not want to do an individual build for you in my experience) whereas with Porsche if you put a deposit down now, you are in a long queue that you might never even get to the end of...

I guess all this depends a lot on where you are living and what you see as well. Buyer profile also matters and there are quite a few people who are worried about being seen in a Porsche or Ferrari depending on what they do/their social circle/clients etc. There is some anonymity to the average person when it comes to being in a BMW (eg: with my prior and current M5, alot of people at the office didn't even know it was anything special.)

Yeah true.
People would honestly rather have a Porsche over a BMW, but you are comparing a 5yr+ old Porsche to a new BMW and people lean on the tech, ability to leverage the BMWs more ITO finance, dated interior relative to a new BMW ETC.

In my opinion, a Porsche is only worth it when it starts with GTx or has Turbo in the nomenclature, else I'll rather have an newer ///M car.

Porsche vs BMW discussions are always interesting, even though they're not direct rivals unless we're talking Cayenne vs X5. We always agree that a Porsche is a Porsche, it's a Sportscar from ground up, but when it's time to buy, a majority of people go for the M3 over a 911 and an M2 over a Cayman, because of many reasons.

 

[TBP88]

So I feel like there was a brief anomaly when the G80 was launched and before 911 pricing was bumped up where the 911 NEW was less than the G80 was (of course not like for like performance at that point). This didn't last for very long - maybe 6-8 months.

I feel like around Kyalami anyway I saw a ton more Porsches (more than the Porsche track being across the road would suggest) and almost no G8x. I see many more M3s and M4s nowadays with the pricing actually now quite far apart on the 911 front.

Unfortunately in SA the market will always tend to normalise upwards on price, especially on the luxury goods side/those targeting HNWI... even though for that brief moment one would have hoped BMW was going to realign pricing to match Porsche LOL.

Reality I guess is past R1M 'if you want it you must pay' applies and the market enables this.

I am also not sure if you isolate the M3 vs entirety of the 911 lineup and M2 vs the entireity of the Boxter/Cayman market that this is actually true. I certainly see (in the last two generations of each anyway) many many more of the Porsches than I do of the BMWs. You can walk into a BMW dealership and there are M cars that have been sitting for months (to the degree they will not want to do an individual build for you in my experience) whereas with Porsche if you put a deposit down now, you are in a long queue that you might never even get to the end of...

I guess all this depends a lot on where you are living and what you see as well. Buyer profile also matters and there are quite a few people who are worried about being seen in a Porsche or Ferrari depending on what they do/their social circle/clients etc. There is some anonymity to the average person when it comes to being in a BMW (eg: with my prior and current M5, alot of people at the office didn't even know it was anything special.)

I think this has moved a heck of a lot in the last 20yrs. When I was a kid a Porsche was as rare as a ferrari to see. Obviously now with the Macan and Cayenne that's shifted, but even 911 sales figures are way, way up from what it was pre-996 era.

I'm sure M3/4 sales are growing too but whereas I instantly recall seeing tons of the F-series M cars the G series M cars certainly have been slower on the uptake.

Interest rates are sky high and with the cost for real M-Car territory being R1.6m for a base M2 it's very, very hard to justify for most consumers.

 

[Nukleuz]

I think this has moved a heck of a lot in the last 20yrs. When I was a kid a Porsche was as rare as a ferrari to see. Obviously now with the Macan and Cayenne that's shifted, but even 911 sales figures are way, way up from what it was pre-996 era.

I'm sure M3/4 sales are growing too but whereas I instantly recall seeing tons of the F-series M cars the G series M cars certainly have been slower on the uptake.

Interest rates are sky high and with the cost for real M-Car territory being R1.6m for a base M2 it's very, very hard to justify for most consumers.

These are my observations as well. I hardly if ever see G series M cars. Would love to know the sales numbers compared to the F series so far.

 

[realtrevor]

Look I personally would like to own a 911 or Cayman, preferably the ones with NA engines like 991.1 models or any GT3, even though I've never driven a Porsche except for a Cayenne. Before I can have a 911 I'd have to have a practical Sportscar that I can use almost anywhere anytime, and this is where normal sportscars like (A45, RS3, M2/3/44, RS4/4, C63, etc) come in handy because they offer more practicality, meaning you can use these for family trips as well.
So an M2 paired with a 991.1 Carrera S/GTS/GT3 would be a nice combo.

One other thing to factor in, is cost of ownership, I've realized that most people who own Porsches always buy the Porsche Maintenance Plan, which is not a cheap thing to do, but with the other cars I mentioned, people do take their chances and own them out of Maintenance Plan and buy a 3rd Party Warranty, because there's a huge availability of parts and RMI Approved workshops.

One key thing is dealer network, there's only 4 Porsche Dealerships in SA with two being in GP, so depending on where you're located any Porsche wouldn't be easy to own, imagine driving from Nelspruit to Pretoria just for a light bulb change.

So when people buy BMWs and Mercs for Porsche money, they're not implying that their BMs and Mercs are better than the Porsches, there's many thing considered.

 

[Benji]

Agree on the maintenance costs of Porsches. I recently went to have a look at a very clean and well looked after boggo 996 911 with about 110k on the clocks. Car was advertised for just over 400k. I found an invoice in the service book for 90k from earlier this year. There are not many owners who will spend effectively 25% of their cars value on maintenance.

It take a lot of bravery and deep pockets to "daily" a cheapie Porsche 911

Look I personally would like to own a 911 or Cayman, preferably the ones with NA engines like 991.1 models or any GT3, even though I've never driven a Porsche except for a Cayenne. Before I can have a 911 I'd have to have a practical Sportscar that I can use almost anywhere anytime, and this is where normal sportscars like (A45, RS3, M2/3/44, RS4/4, C63, etc) come in handy because they offer more practicality, meaning you can use these for family trips as well.
So an M2 paired with a 991.1 Carrera S/GTS/GT3 would be a nice combo.

One other thing to factor in, is cost of ownership, I've realized that most people who own Porsches always buy the Porsche Maintenance Plan, which is not a cheap thing to do, but with the other cars I mentioned, people do take their chances and own them out of Maintenance Plan and buy a 3rd Party Warranty, because there's a huge availability of parts and RMI Approved workshops.

One key thing is dealer network, there's only 4 Porsche Dealerships in SA with two being in GP, so depending on where you're located any Porsche wouldn't be easy to own, imagine driving from Nelspruit to Pretoria just for a light bulb change.

So when people buy BMWs and Mercs for Porsche money, they're not implying that their BMs and Mercs are better than the Porsches, there's many thing considered.

 

[TBP88]

Look I personally would like to own a 911 or Cayman, preferably the ones with NA engines like 991.1 models or any GT3, even though I've never driven a Porsche except for a Cayenne. Before I can have a 911 I'd have to have a practical Sportscar that I can use almost anywhere anytime, and this is where normal sportscars like (A45, RS3, M2/3/44, RS4/4, C63, etc) come in handy because they offer more practicality, meaning you can use these for family trips as well.
So an M2 paired with a 991.1 Carrera S/GTS/GT3 would be a nice combo.

One other thing to factor in, is cost of ownership, I've realized that most people who own Porsches always buy the Porsche Maintenance Plan, which is not a cheap thing to do, but with the other cars I mentioned, people do take their chances and own them out of Maintenance Plan and buy a 3rd Party Warranty, because there's a huge availability of parts and RMI Approved workshops.

One key thing is dealer network, there's only 4 Porsche Dealerships in SA with two being in GP, so depending on where you're located any Porsche wouldn't be easy to own, imagine driving from Nelspruit to Pretoria just for a light bulb change.

So when people buy BMWs and Mercs for Porsche money, they're not implying that their BMs and Mercs are better than the Porsches, there's many thing considered.

Fair enough on the last point. If you're far away from a dealer you've got a challenge on your hands. In terms of running cost - I doubt a 911 is any more pricey to own than the hefty M cars, V10 M6, V8 M3, these are not cheap cars to run and require pretty hefty bills every 3-5yrs.

I'm quite weary of the long-term costs, but it's a bridge to cross in 4.5yrs for me. I may well have to either trade in take the extended plan (I think Porsche gives you 10yrs like this, mileage dependent of course.)

 

[realtrevor]

I don't know is this counts for anything. Yes the cayman would be nicer to drive and should feel more controllable.

But the G87 M2 is quicker than the GT4 Cayman in some tracks, I've seen this twice, despite the heavier weight and Steptronic Gearbox. This is like the new W206 C63sE beating a G80 M3 on track, it's just not something you expect to happen.

 

[MR_Y]

Naturally aspirated Porsches need to be revved to properly be enjoyed. On my 981 Boxster, even though it boasted almost 200kw it stuggled to pull away easily (i.e. with a gentle foot) in crawling traffic compared to a small turbo hatchback. On my 981 Cayman S, it was less of an issue but it still needed revs to get going. Part of the pleasure of owning an NA Porsche is making it sing. But in daily traffic, especially at altitude, it can be a chore. For those who want the comfort and ease of use of a daily sporty driver's car, I can understand the appeal of a turbo BMW/Audi/Merc with low end grunt.

Even the old Macan Turbo 3.6 requires revs to get going. At traffic speeds it is no more responsive than a diesel Macan.

Porsches require a firmer foot and hand/arm since the pedals and steering require more deliberate inputs.

Different people will have different tastes. I have a mate who had a Cayman S and then upgraded to an M850i because a 911 did not suit his needs (he wanted a more comfortable, fast driving experience).

Another guy had a choice between a new TT RS and a used Cayman 4.0 GTS and chose the TT because it was much faster at altitude. He will only get a Porsche if it is the fastest car at the price, since he does not care about handling poise.

There is no wrong or right decision. Individual preferences vary.

 

[MR_Y]

Look I personally would like to own a 911 or Cayman, preferably the ones with NA engines like 991.1 models or any GT3, even though I've never driven a Porsche except for a Cayenne. Before I can have a 911 I'd have to have a practical Sportscar that I can use almost anywhere anytime, and this is where normal sportscars like (A45, RS3, M2/3/44, RS4/4, C63, etc) come in handy because they offer more practicality, meaning you can use these for family trips as well.
So an M2 paired with a 991.1 Carrera S/GTS/GT3 would be a nice combo.

One other thing to factor in, is cost of ownership, I've realized that most people who own Porsches always buy the Porsche Maintenance Plan, which is not a cheap thing to do, but with the other cars I mentioned, people do take their chances and own them out of Maintenance Plan and buy a 3rd Party Warranty, because there's a huge availability of parts and RMI Approved workshops.

One key thing is dealer network, there's only 4 Porsche Dealerships in SA with two being in GP, so depending on where you're located any Porsche wouldn't be easy to own, imagine driving from Nelspruit to Pretoria just for a light bulb change.

So when people buy BMWs and Mercs for Porsche money, they're not implying that their BMs and Mercs are better than the Porsches, there's many thing considered.

Well said.

 

[TurboLlew]

Naturally aspirated Porsches need to be revved to properly be enjoyed. On my 981 Boxster, even though it boasted almost 200kw it stuggled to pull away easily (i.e. with a gentle foot) in crawling traffic compared to a small turbo hatchback. On my 981 Cayman S, it was less of an issue but it still needed revs to get going. Part of the pleasure of owning an NA Porsche is making it sing. But in daily traffic, especially at altitude, it can be a chore. For those who want the comfort and ease of use of a daily sporty driver's car, I can understand the appeal of a turbo BMW/Audi/Merc with low end grunt.

Even the old Macan Turbo 3.6 requires revs to get going. At traffic speeds it is no more responsive than a diesel Macan.

Porsches require a firmer foot and hand/arm since the pedals and steering require more deliberate inputs.

Different people will have different tastes. I have a mate who had a Cayman S and then upgraded to an M850i because a 911 did not suit his needs (he wanted a more comfortable, fast driving experience).

Another guy had a choice between a new TT RS and a used Cayman 4.0 GTS and chose the TT because it was much faster at altitude. He will only get a Porsche if it is the fastest car at the price, since he does not care about handling poise.

There is no wrong or right decision. Individual preferences vary.

This is exactly what it boils down to. Some care about dicing everything that moves and it is a serious embarrassment for them if they are slower. Others care about how it feels getting there. Some care about both LOL.

I feel like the ring times, track times etc these days count for nothing. On one hand they are faked often by manufacturers (even you Lamborghini STO, Porsche times etc are in question everytime they are posted as people post frame by frame analysis these days), on the other when they are called out, most people be they manufacturers, influencers or journos just turn around and say 'well it was for entertainment' or 'it was the prep' or <Insert reason why I am not a liar>. Throttle house alluded to BMW not wanting to send them cars because they criticised the styling of the cars... can't remember which vid it was.

Even in head to head 'on the same day' tests there are drivers that will get more out of one car vs. another, setup considerations - the type of track (My 4C has given Ferraris nightmares at Z but at Kyalami... not so much LOL). Most are for entertainment purposes and highly controlled. If it involves a Ferrari you cannot trust anything you read since journos get totally different cars to what a buyer receives and even Chris Harris has spoken about this. Ferrari will also blacklist you from buying cars if you don't behave a certain way even if you are an owner. There were owners blacklisted for lending their cars to publications, influencers and shows. Porsche has their list of people they pay... as do most others I guess. This is why every leak/review/opinion is basically pointless to watch these days apart from getting to see and hear to some degree. It is simply an extension of the marketing materials.

This boils down to one simple thing:

You
Have
To
Drive
For
Yourself!!

Otherwise you would believe a GR86 is god's gift to motoring... Same goes for many cars (rinse and repeat for everything these days from every hobby including PCs, collectibles etc etc). Influencers are just paid ads - get what you want to out of the content but go and form your own opinions by experiencing them yourself... and then go put your money where you feel it will be best spent regardless of someone's opinion. If a manufacturer doesnt' allow you to then that must also be part of your opinion forming around a brand. Why do you think many people don't own GT-Rs (even when they cost around the same and were way more powerful and dynamically capable than the equivalent Porsche and M car of the time... Nissan treated you like DOGSHIT if you even set foot near one.) Motoring journos in particular are in my experience the WORST at this. There are literally a handful of journos whose opinion and content you might be able to trust.

My last comment is on dealer network. We ourselves only have a handful of trusted BMW dealers despite the footprint being quite wide. It's the same with Merc (I use a dealer far away from the closest 3 dealers to us), Alfa same story: A dealer network may be some psychological safety net but even with our M and M lite cars we know that it isn't wise to take it to all but a few dealerships. Should you have an issue somewhere remote, my guess would be you are still going to figure out a way to get to one of these either via topping up on roadside assistance or in limp mode. With Porsche, if you don't have this option at least you know the 'nearest dealer' is not going to have a potential quality or expertise issue as it is one of those 4.

 

[TBP88]

This is exactly what it boils down to. Some care about dicing everything that moves and it is a serious embarrassment for them if they are slower. Others care about how it feels getting there. Some care about both LOL.

I feel like the ring times, track times etc these days count for nothing. On one hand they are faked often by manufacturers (even you Lamborghini STO, Porsche times etc are in question everytime they are posted as people post frame by frame analysis these days), on the other when they are called out, most people be they manufacturers, influencers or journos just turn around and say 'well it was for entertainment' or 'it was the prep' or <Insert reason why I am not a liar>. Throttle house alluded to BMW not wanting to send them cars because they criticised the styling of the cars... can't remember which vid it was.

Even in head to head 'on the same day' tests there are drivers that will get more out of one car vs. another, setup considerations - the type of track (My 4C has given Ferraris nightmares at Z but at Kyalami... not so much LOL). Most are for entertainment purposes and highly controlled. If it involves a Ferrari you cannot trust anything you read since journos get totally different cars to what a buyer receives and even Chris Harris has spoken about this. Ferrari will also blacklist you from buying cars if you don't behave a certain way even if you are an owner. There were owners blacklisted for lending their cars to publications, influencers and shows. Porsche has their list of people they pay... as do most others I guess. This is why every leak/review/opinion is basically pointless to watch these days apart from getting to see and hear to some degree. It is simply an extension of the marketing materials.

This boils down to one simple thing:

You
Have
To
Drive
For
Yourself!!

Otherwise you would believe a GR86 is god's gift to motoring... Same goes for many cars (rinse and repeat for everything these days from every hobby including PCs, collectibles etc etc). Influencers are just paid ads - get what you want to out of the content but go and form your own opinions by experiencing them yourself... and then go put your money where you feel it will be best spent regardless of someone's opinion. If a manufacturer doesnt' allow you to then that must also be part of your opinion forming around a brand. Why do you think many people don't own GT-Rs (even when they cost around the same and were way more powerful and dynamically capable than the equivalent Porsche and M car of the time... Nissan treated you like DOGSHIT if you even set foot near one.) Motoring journos in particular are in my experience the WORST at this. There are literally a handful of journos whose opinion and content you might be able to trust.

My last comment is on dealer network. We ourselves only have a handful of trusted BMW dealers despite the footprint being quite wide. It's the same with Merc (I use a dealer far away from the closest 3 dealers to us), Alfa same story: A dealer network may be some psychological safety net but even with our M and M lite cars we know that it isn't wise to take it to all but a few dealerships. Should you have an issue somewhere remote, my guess would be you are still going to figure out a way to get to one of these either via topping up on roadside assistance or in limp mode. With Porsche, if you don't have this option at least you know the 'nearest dealer' is not going to have a potential quality or expertise issue as it is one of those 4.

That middle bit>>>>*

At the end of the day what made up my mind was driving the GT4.

Sure they're not gonna give you a loaner and you do need to rely on reviews and videos to understand the usability and just also to get you thinking about the practicality of the car. But if you don't drive it, I really don't see how you can buy it.

At least BMW let me have a go in an M2, even if not the spec I wanted.

The other brands can genuinely take a hike. Perhaps there's a stream of people out there willing to shell out the thick end of R2m on stuff they have no first hand experience of, but I am not amongst that number.

I've been visiting the Porsche dealer probably for the last 7 or 8 years a few times a year, probably 6 or 7 times in the course of an average year. I (THUSFAR!) have no complaints about my treatment and tbh they do make an effort to make you buying a car feel pretty special.

Just reading that tracktime I'd be keen to see the GTS vs GT4 difference, should be worth a few seconds, but as I've banged on about: The GT4 is so far more capable a car than I am driver that the tracktimes are almost entirely immaterial. I bought a GT4 because it felt and looked amazing to me. I get a lot of guys pulling alongside for races and highway pulls but I'm pretty comfy just cruising at 130 and chilling. The car feels special at manageable speed in a way very similar to what the Z4M did.

At the end of the day what matters most is how you feel in the car and whether you can afford that vehicle. For some the small screen and low tech nature of the GT4 wouldn't work. For others it might be too disconnected compared to an older more mechanical car, for some a 2 door sportscar couldn't be more impractical etc. etc. etc. Cars are such a highly personal choice - and as car people we tend to forget that (1) we're happy to spend miles more on this hobby than the average joe and (2) we actually care more than the average joe.

99% of people don't know what FWD vs RWD is, let alone care about hydraulic steering. They just want good infotainment, the ability to overtake relatively easily, for the car to look (subjectively!) good and for it to be safe. Sure you can add some badge snobbery on top of that as well. But if a car meets the above - it's almost certainly destined to be a good seller if priced remotely decently.