Procede V4 Install results

[Rocket]

Howzit all,

been reading the heated debate about Twinz JB3 and George's Tune in the other thread, thought i would throw a spanner in the works here with a different products results -- the Procede which i installed and played around with over the weekend after BMW FINALLY finished replacing half my car in the last two weeks!

Initially the gains were small and as expected since i have a stock hardware setup running on Sasol 95 Octane fuel - just the Vishnu ECU that all. Then the more runs i did on the dyno the more and more power and torque the engine made thanks to the autotune feature the Procede has.

Baseline run done on my Hyperpower dyno - uncorrected power on the wheels (uncorrected is TRUE power with no sea level correction formula's, its what power was made there and then in those conditions)

Baseline power - 175KW and 330NM at the wheels done on Friday night with 26 deg celcius Air temps and 24% humidity (Totally stock 2008 335i)
Run1 with Map1 (13.5psi 0.92bar setting) increased power nicely
Run2 with Map1 - more increase (dyno graph to follow)
Run3 with Map1 - more increase (dyno graph to follow)
Run4 with Map1 - even more -- (dyno graph to follow)

The reason for the increase is the autotune feature, you simply set your boost ceiling and program the ECU how aggresive you want the map along with ALOT of other tuneable settings, and it does the rest.

Finally after many runs i made 206KW and 447NM at the wheels UNCORRECTED on Sasol 95octane Pump Fuel. I called it a night a went out onto the road -- what a difference!

Saturday around 13H30 i decided to take a run on my dyno again with 35 deg Celcius air temps and 44% humidity - and made 182KW and 378NM due to the heat!

After a datalog with the Procede - I found that the boost ceiling was only reaching 10PSI 0.79bar ... I went into the user adjustable settings and saw that the boost ceiling was in fact set to 13.5PSI 0.92BAR but the ECU would not allow the boost to achieve that due to the air temps being to high. I overlayed the boost and AFR curves aswell as Ignition Correction curves over RPM and its clear that the ignition and boost is being modified as the RPM increases. The autotune feature certainly works extremely well to protect your engine.

I then went to a friends shop to visit and landed up doing more work on the car, and started by doing a baseline run on his Dastek Dyno and achieved a similar 207KW power reading at the wheels on his dyno using the same MAP settings as i used when i achieved the 206KW run on my Hyperpower dyno. We then started tinkering ...

I added some fuel additives to the tank and did a few more runs, and eventually landed up with 227KW and 470NM at the wheels and peaked there.

Then we did a small mod to the fuel system and made a few more changes to the settings in the ECU and finally managed to get a 252KW and 505NM at the wheels. These tests were done on a Dastek Dyno - graph attached below.

After each achievement 206KW, 227KW and 252KW i had a benchmark car which we raced each time to check the results - and no doubt the results are REAL - The benchmark car was a Volvo T5 with all the mods which include intercooler, downpipe, full exhaust, boost increased to 1.0bar with tune etc.

First run out 206KW setting - neck and neck off the line, and i managed to pull a + - 3 car length on him around 200km/h

Second run 227KW setting - off the line i managed to pull away a nice lead and kept pulling up till high speeds where there was a + - 7 car lead.

Last run late afternoon, 252KW setting from the word go, i pulled and pulled and at a scary 272km/h clock speed i had approximately 20 cars lead. The poor traction light was bliking all the way through 2nd gear.

Sunday morning i am going to run the car again on my hyperpower dyno to compare runs and i will report the results back again.

 

[M3turbo]

Amazing. Thats almost too good to be real.
Vishnu tuning is brilliant!

 

[Twinz]

Rocket, those are good and solid results. :thumbsup: Enjoy. I am always amazed how a tune alone makes these turbo cars spring to life.:clap:

What are the other mods on your car?

 

[Rocket]

Thanks Twinz -- heres some more info on the tests i did today. Plenty USEFUL information here as to the workings of the ECUs and how they autotune -- at least the Procede does.

Firstly, i did runs today at 33.5 deg celcius again with a humidity level of 53%, all runs were done on normal 95 octane fuel, no octane boost, ran it out last night on the highway with an M5 V10. I put juice in not even 100meters from the Dyno as i was on reserve and 12km to go according to the stock ECU, i wanted a proper few runs on pure 95 octane.

OK heres the data with the dyno graphs to back up. Note that the first run in stock mode is laid out on each run to show the difference between stock and Map1 on the Procede on 95octane pump fuel-- this is equivalent to the USA's 91octane RON (our fuel is MOTOR rated)

Information to be noted:-

1) All runs were also Datalogged through the Procede.
2) No breaks were taken between runs
3) Fan was on at all times between runs
4) Time taken to setup for the next run after saving the presious run was + - 2 minutes
5) All runs were taken in 4th gear and started at 2000RPM and plotting ended at 6000RPM
6) All runs are done UNCORRECTED and power is displayed at the wheels

Run1 - 213KW and 467NM at the wheels

Run2 - 219KW and 458NM at the wheels

Run3 - 220KW and 451NM at the wheels (lower NM but ill explain why and how just now)

Run4 - 224KW and 479NM at the wheels (back up on NM -- explanation below)



OK lets look at the graphs -- i wasnt happy with the results on run 3 and 4 as the torque curve 'dipped' off at torque peak, which tells me that something is on the go here. The datalog file showed me exactly what was going on. Look at the dyno runs of 3 and 4 where youll see the torque peak of Run3 start to dip at around 3750RPM and pick up slightly around 4250RPM before finally sloping away (small turbos!) at 4200RPM.

Looking at Run4 -- this did not happen, instead i made considerably more torque ie. 451NM to 479NM. An experienced tuner will tell you that torque has a relationship with boost, i suspected that the boost was dropping off and/or Ignition was being corrected.



Now look at the datalog screen shot - i have overlayed the two runs as follows:-

-- Top - RPM is the black increasing upward sloping line, the two boost curves of Run3 and Run4 are shown in Green and Blue respectively
-- Middle - Load Index (drive by wire throttle) The two runs 3&4 load indexes' are shown in black and blue lines referrenced to the RPM above respectively
-- Bottom - Ignition Correction, once again the runs 3&4 are shown together here and again referrenced against the RPM line above in Black and Blue respectively

OK this is pretty simple to work out and decifer -- the two boost curved are different, where the run4's torque peak is you will see the boost is higher than that of Run3. Also you will notice that Run4 has more load at this point then run3 -- in fact it runs more load throughout the entire run then run3. Notice also that Run3 has more ignition correction then run4 does, pulling timing, closing the throttle and pulling boost is why the torque differences are present.

I can only boil this down to the autotune feature slowly increasing the parameters more and more as i took more runs. Remember i had just put 95octane into the tank, and hence the system needed to 'learn' again - which the Procede does brilliantly!

 

[George Smooth]

Hi Rocket,

The testing you did is pretty thorough and the gains are within reason.
I will post a graph from a run I did on a dyno day on Sunday making 374whp in 33 degrees heat with the hood closed and no water cooling. The runs where in third gear. Fourth always makes 25-30whp more. The torque at the bottom might be deceiving as I am not sure if the dyno operator could floor it as I am auto and it kicks down very easily.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Hi Rocket,

The testing you did is pretty thorough and the gains are within reason.
I will post a graph from a run I did on a dyno day on Sunday making 374whp in 33 degrees heat with the hood closed and no water cooling. The runs where in third gear. Fourth always makes 25-30whp more. The torque at the bottom might be deceiving as I am not sure if the dyno operator could floor it as I am auto and it kicks down very easily.

Georgie, well done there. But just a slight correction on KAR's dyno ( I know it quite well). 4th gear makes less power on a 335i. It reads wheel, not flywheel & the fan is too small for 4th. Generally flywheel dyno's like OB's will read higher in 4th.

A dyno should never EVER read different in different gears. The whole point of doing the gearing calibration before the run is to eliminate the variables of gearing & torque multiplication. 4th gear multiplies less torque to the ground than 3rd gear, so a dyno should never tell one that 4th makes more power than 3rd. That's like saying you accelerate better in 6th gear than 1st gear.

That's the whole reason I think flywheel power is bullshit. Especially on auto cars as it upshifts at high revs when you finish the run & the coast is not necessarily done in the same gear as the run.

I believe wheel power is the only way to measure these cars, & dyno's like KAR or Snail have always been the benchmark for wheel power readings.

 

[George Smooth]

Hi Rocket,

The testing you did is pretty thorough and the gains are within reason.
I will post a graph from a run I did on a dyno day on Sunday making 374whp in 33 degrees heat with the hood closed and no water cooling. The runs where in third gear. Fourth always makes 25-30whp more. The torque at the bottom might be deceiving as I am not sure if the dyno operator could floor it as I am auto and it kicks down very easily.

Georgie, well done there. But just a slight correction on KAR's dyno ( I know it quite well). 4th gear makes less power on a 335i. It reads wheel, not flywheel & the fan is too small for 4th. Generally flywheel dyno's like OB's will read higher in 4th.

A dyno should never EVER read different in different gears. The whole point of doing the gearing calibration before the run is to eliminate the variables of gearing & torque multiplication. 4th gear multiplies less torque to the ground than 3rd gear, so a dyno should never tell one that 4th makes more power than 3rd. That's like saying you accelerate better in 6th gear than 1st gear.

That's the whole reason I think flywheel power is bullshit. Especially on auto cars as it upshifts at high revs when you finish the run & the coast is not necessarily done in the same gear as the run.

I believe wheel power is the only way to measure these cars, & dyno's like KAR or Snail have always been the benchmark for wheel power readings.

4th gear will load better. I also run more boost in fourth. My 3rd gear run lasted 4 seconds only. If it shows the same power in all the gears then it should need the same amount of air in each gear so it should not make a difference which gear its in. Fourth will also have less wheelspin as you can see on run 1 it spun badly. I wonder what the corrected run would be as a day like that will run at 29% minimum making it close to a 400whp run.

 

[Kisho135i]

rocket what happenend with the m5?

 

[George Smooth]

Rocket I think you should log actual boost. I think that load index might be something else.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

4th gear will load better. I also run more boost in fourth. My 3rd gear run lasted 4 seconds only. If it shows the same power in all the gears then it should need the same amount of air in each gear so it should not make a difference which gear its in. Fourth will also have less wheelspin as you can see on run 1 it spun badly. I wonder what the corrected run would be as a day like that will run at 29% minimum making it close to a 400whp run.

The more load is a misnomer. All that does is it makes greater torque low down. It ends up making the same peak power. Same with wheelspin, only affects low down readings, but I put someone in the boot & it's fine.

335 will make less peak power in 4th at KAR. I have dyno'd 12 there. I am telling you this from experience. Use it, don't use it.

P.S. I don't userstand the need for air statement. The fan is too small for a long gear like 4th which goes to 220km/h. They pull loads of timing on KAR's dyno in 4th. Once again, this is from my experience on KAR. But don't take it as gospel id you have data that counter's it. Maybe go dyno in 4th today & call me to tell me if I'm right or wrong.

 

[Twinz]

Sherwin i happen to have a different experience than yours and I agree with Georges comments. I have commented on people that hold your dyno views on Georges other thread - use it, don't use it...imp:

---

Rocket I think you should log actual boost. I think that load index might be something else.

I just picked that up as well. But i could be misreading the graph...Rocket advise on this please

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

Twins, of course you will have the same view as George. Cape Town dyno's all read flywheel. So yeah, it will be skewed & incorrect, especially for auto cars.

KAR reads wheel power so all your expertise gets thrown out the window. It is impossible for a car to make more power on the wheels in 4th than 3rd. Surely you guys went to school long enough to know this. What is 4th gears ratio vs 3rd? Which multiplies more torque to the ground guys?

The only diffwrence some say is 4th gets more load and boosts more or something. Bullshit. Technically, 4th gets more load sooner than 3rd. So it gets full load earlier in the rev range. Same peak power.

 

[George Smooth]

Twins, of course you will have the same view as George. Cape Town dyno's all read flywheel. So yeah, it will be skewed & incorrect, especially for auto cars.

KAR reads wheel power so all your expertise gets thrown out the window. It is impossible for a car to make more power on the wheels in 4th than 3rd. Surely you guys went to school long enough to know this. What is 4th gears ratio vs 3rd? Which multiplies more torque to the ground guys?

The only diffwrence some say is 4th gets more load and boosts more or something. Bullshit. Technically, 4th gets more load sooner than 3rd. So it gets full load earlier in the rev range. Same peak power.

KAR actually reads both but they use wheel.
I am not sure what the whole flywheel who wha is. You do one run that measures losses and then those same losses are used for everyone run. So if losses are 50kw and you run 190 on the wheels it give you 240. If you tune and make 200 it will give you 250.
You might also need to go to school to learn to read better as I said my car boosts more in 4th.
I am not sure why the load makes no difference to you. Do you tune using the reading at the bottom saying the peaks?

I personally am happy with KAR as its used as a standard. I believe it is recalibrated to a certain extent but what I have are other 135's and 335's on the same day to compare against.

 

[SDP]

Some dyno's have a speed wobble @ High speed, over 200km/h that could influence readings as well. On Kars old premises I could get the car to stop Wheel spinning and asked operator to run in 5th gear, He declined stating the high speed issue

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

I am not sure what the whole flywheel who wha is. You do one run that measures losses and then those same losses are used for everyone run. So if losses are 50kw and you run 190 on the wheels it give you 240. If you tune and make 200 it will give you 250.

Ok allow me to explain what the whoo-ha & why it's wrong. When an auto car gets to high revs & you lift, the box shifts up a gear. Then the coast down is done in a higher gear than the actual run. Hence the losses are wrong. You with me? That's why your car reads higher in 4th than in 3rd on OB"s dyno. Or even the Cape town dyno's.

But wheel power is correct & your wheel power is awesome!

 

[George Smooth]

I am not sure what the whole flywheel who wha is. You do one run that measures losses and then those same losses are used for everyone run. So if losses are 50kw and you run 190 on the wheels it give you 240. If you tune and make 200 it will give you 250.

Ok allow me to explain what the whoo-ha & why it's wrong. When an auto car gets to high revs & you lift, the box shifts up a gear. Then the coast down is done in a higher gear than the actual run. Hence the losses are wrong. You with me? That's why your car reads higher in 4th than in 3rd on OB"s dyno. Or even the Cape town dyno's.

But wheel power is correct & your wheel power is awesome!

You totally wrong. Coast down is done in neutral. That's why the dyno screen says in massive writing APPLY NEUTRAL. My car reads higher in fourth because I am boosting more.
I prefer to use wheel power myself, it takes one parameter out but since I only did one coast down run with the losses as a delta its all the same. I also prefer as you know not to use a dyno at all.

 

[Sherwin@xcede]

You totally wrong. Coast down is done in neutral. That's why the dyno screen says in massive writing APPLY NEUTRAL. My car reads higher in fourth because I am boosting more.
I prefer to use wheel power myself, it takes one parameter out but since I only did one coast down run with the losses as a delta its all the same. I also prefer as you know not to use a dyno at all.

George, how do you do coast down losses in neutral? The drive-train is disengaged in neutral buddy? What losses are you calculating in neutral?

Anyway, I don't know how you guys do it, but at KAR & Snail, the car is not in neutral. It's in a higher gear. I can even show you graphs when I get home. You can see the car upshift at 6500, then coast down to zero.

And I don't know about 4th gear boosting more than 3rd gear. Maybe low down. Peak boost we get a bit more in 3rd actually.

 

[George Smooth]

You totally wrong. Coast down is done in neutral. That's why the dyno screen says in massive writing APPLY NEUTRAL. My car reads higher in fourth because I am boosting more.
I prefer to use wheel power myself, it takes one parameter out but since I only did one coast down run with the losses as a delta its all the same. I also prefer as you know not to use a dyno at all.

George, how do you do coast down losses in neutral? The drive-train is disengaged in neutral buddy? What losses are you calculating in neutral?

Anyway, I don't know how you guys do it, but at KAR & Snail, the car is not in neutral. It's in a higher gear. I can even show you graphs when I get home. You can see the car upshift at 6500, then coast down to zero.

And I don't know about 4th gear boosting more than 3rd gear. Maybe low down. Peak boost we get a bit more in 3rd actually.

There is always a upshift in auto's because you go from third in step to drive before hitting neutral hence the upshift.

That's how it has always been done. From the first hyperpower installed although I did think of something. The wind resistance of the wheel could be possibly higher cause its spinning from a far higher speed down. Its all elementary and its a killed discussion as dynos are used as a before and after measuring tool. To make matters worse they are recalibrating now so old readings are old and new are new. The same aspects that affect flywheel power readings affect wheel readings such as tire pressure, cold oil, wheel weights etc. Its a great topic to argue with the only winners being the bandwidth providers.

and apologies to Rocket for hijacking his thread.

 

[Twinz]

Well explained George...you put the issue succinctly with that graphic humour. :thumbsup:

Sherwin (i assume) as a tuner you spend an inordinate amount of time tuning cars on a dyno and I respect that you do have an inordinate amount of experience of dynos and cars being dyno'd..this i am not debating or questioning. I also agree that a wheel power reading on a dyno is the ideal. Yes, in the Cape we do read at the fly wheel and it comes with its own inconsistencies...not debating or questioning that either. I had my car dynoed at the wheels last week and it is a sobering excercise and a far cry from my previous glory numbers taken @ the flywheel. So with all these i am in agreement. But what does concern me and it is not a reference to you as a tuner; but just a general statement of frustration at dyno operators that have not learnt that cars are different.

I will not dyno my car in 3rd gear or 5th gear even though 5th is the correct 1:1 gear (i think).
4th gear is not a tru 1:1 but close enough and on my high boosting 335 it provides an appropriate HP & TQ value. This does not mean that the numbers of cars dyno'd in 4th gear is inflated or an overshot but a recognition that the car is best dynod in 4th gear to get a more realistic reading of its potential....surely this reasoning is in order?

I also accept that when one dyno for the purposes of tuning a whole different end goal is in mind and not necessarily to get the highest HP & TQ. But if i put my car on the dyno whether measured @ the wheels or flywheel than my end goal is to measure performance & the performance of the various modifications done to my car. Here is my conundrum - a dyno operator that have to dyno 20 or more cars at a dyno day does not necessarily share the same goal other than to squeeze the hell out of the accelerator pedal...just my 3 cents worth.

 

[Rennzport]

George, that pic made the thread worth reading.

Ok carry on guys..