Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
How did the Gupta's do state capture?
12-02-2020, 04:04 PM,
#1
How did the Gupta's do state capture?
I am back with another controversial topic.

Been reading up on the State Capture stuff and all the people involved and the amounts of money that were looted by the brothers and accomplices and I can't help but wonder:

https://www.moneyweb.co.za/in-depth/inve...capture-2/

1. Are the Gupta brothers really that intelligent to put a plan in to action for the next unforeseeable years to rob the state with willing participants?

2. How does something like this come about? Were they just hanging around passing and joint and thought "Lets go sell computers in South Africa"

3. What was the plan with all that money? There is only so much money you can spend in one lifetime?

4. Did the banks and other companies they used for these robberies know they were part of the bigger plan or?

If this by any means seems like I am praising their actions then it came out wrong, but at some point one has to sit down and think WOW!!! These guys really executed a very brilliant, well thought out plan which to a very large extend was very successful.

If you are interested in something, No matter what it is
Go at it full speed
Embrace it with both arms
Love it
Live it
Be it
Above all become passionate about it
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2020, 04:08 PM,
#2
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
Greed and Corruption are possibly the biggest motives to all parties involved,
And yes as disgusting as it is they got away with it, as we just watched it happen.

"... Quick Get To Da Chopper..."
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-02-2020, 11:36 PM,
#3
How did the Gupta's do state capture?
How did they do state capture? Simple: da-doo-doo-dooooooo. Done

Sent on the move using Tapatalk

#NoLivesMatter
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2020, 05:39 AM,
#4
How did the Gupta's do state capture?
Root cause: Greed, copious amounts of fraud and self interest.

PS remember that banks don’t act as custodians of money - they use deposits to make more..... so why call out a lucrative stream of liquidity if you’re making money as a financial institution.

Recently FATF has embargoed and frozen all Gupta related accounts in the USA - yet there are still small banks in SA that house Gupta treasury.

Very interesting but agreed - well thought out and executed plan. Sad that SA will need year and years to recover from this..... and still no one will go to jail....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2020, 06:20 AM,
#5
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
Cunning masterminds + zero moral officials = PLAN

PLAN + distraction of WMC + pliable Cadre insertion in all levels of government procurement = PREPARATION.

BUDGET - PREPARATION = GRAND SCALE LOOTING (aka State Capture)

Oh and anyone who believes the state capture project has been stopped is frankly delusional. It's alive and well and lining up to raid the GEPF.
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2020, 08:52 AM,
#6
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
This was far more sophisticated of a campaign involving all the worst bits of social media, human greed and unbelievable corruption. Watch the great hack on Netflix... Cambridge Analytica came here and DEVELOPED the concept of White Monopoly Capital and elevating it. Every time I see some crap like #ImStaying (which even has billboards now) or random co-ordinated xenophobia etc I wonder if a company like this is still involved. I believe NOTHING from anything that comes from anti-government or government alike. You have to try to make sense of things yourself.

The only reason anyone got caught was because they were THAT stupid and THAT greedy. There were plenty that are still feeding at the trough of corruption silently collecting just enough that it doesn't get noticed.

However, make no mistake and assume that this is government only and not happening in a large number of corporates. There are some corporates where the CFO is still in place but it is an open secret that they have (via corruption of subordinate levels) stolen hundreds of millions of rands… Insert corrupt auditors and regulators here as well... It is too high of a risk to expose some of these items as it would affect share prices etc. Just look at eg: what happened to the MTN share price with a scandal that was related to Nigeria and then again with Iran etc. It might never recover.

I myself have been propositioned (when working on my own) by leaders of ICT companies to run certain things and then 'their cut' is due. Bear in mind you might be making less profit on the project than this 'cut'. On one project, when I refused the budget gradually got decreased to the point I said it couldn't work for me any longer. If you have experienced this, the chances are you missed the memo or missed the 'code words'. Same when pitching to government... the bastions of corporate governance: procurement managers, ask you "How many zeros are in a million"... spoiler alert: it's a codeword...

I could have a lot more money (as could many on here) if we put up with these things. Unfortunately many are relegated to being sub-contractors who end up being the scapegoats when the gravy train sucks all the gravy out of the pot and there is no money left to provide adequate delivery...

see: KZN North Coast roads, RDP housing, Eskom, Edcon… list goes on.

Having a business in SA is rough... there is the regulatory environment, what I mention above, the fact that you essentially cannot buy a prime commercial property because Liberty/Sanlam etc own them all and lie and abuse businesses while screwing over their policy holders on the other end (another rant for another day).

The normalisation of corruption and the development of a culture of corruption are the real reasons we are in the mess we are. What kills me is not the scale or the brazenness - its that SA and the SOEs and corporates in its sectors were SO PROMISING and successful they could have actually enriched themselves and still done it sustainably... but that wasn't enough... it had to be sucked dry.

[Image: w0YM6SYl.png]
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 9 users Like TurboLlew's post:
B16A4, Bmw.wp, Ga-3M, GravityLee, jannie1510, Peter@AEW, sash, Spanky, that_guy_Ettiene
13-02-2020, 10:01 AM,
#7
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
@ TurboLlew. Once again a well thought out and informative take on the subject sir.

I agree with pretty much everything that you have said and I trot out my old hobby horse on the subject. Of course in doing so, I will no doubt be labelled an insensitive racist or similar. One reaches a stage in one's life where one no longer cares about offending someone else's subtle sensitivities with TRUTH.

The hobby horse. I have had the privilege of traveling the length and breadth of this continent for business. In EVERY country North of our borders there is a common denominator. Massively wealthy government officials and there connected "comrades" and staggeringly poor "everyone else". For practical purposes no middle class.

Stemming from the above and in my view as a direct result of there being no middle class, the infrastructures of roads, rail, electricity and water supply all stumble along and fail with monotonous regularity. Why? Because the "Haves" run on their own and don't rely on or pay for the "services" while "The Rest" simply don't have the resources.

So "The State" runs these services with just enough to avoid outright anarchy. Sometimes it spills into anarchy and you see skirmishes in the streets; Zimbabwe last year, DRC before that...the list goes on.

So what is the relevance of this to the original topic. Well the South African middle class is diminishing at alarming rates. That cannot end well.

State Capture is no new concept. When the order that was undeniably present in the so-called colonial past was booted out, sometimes violently,(Zim with the "British", Mozambique with the Portuguese, Congo with the French and Belgians etc etc) then the vacuum that that created led to in-fighting between the so-called "original inhabitants".

In many African countries, this in-fighting persists to this very day and the level of violence and brutality that accompanies this is appalling.... no other word for the savagery that I have had the misfortune to come across and witness which NEVER reaches the outside world.

But I digress. The stark reality is that there is a continent of proof and a blueprint of where this country is headed. The roller coaster has crested the climb and the cars are almost ready to plunge down the first drop.

Prove me wrong on this please.

So in regard to the way to fix it, the truth is that the current government has neither the skills capability nor the moral fibre to effect meaningful change. The current president sat right next to Chief Thief as his deputy for years and said not a word. He is therefore complicit.

Then one sees the likes of "Ace" spouting about the fight against corruption at Mandela release celebrations a couple of days ago and one is left thinking "Is this asshat for real"??? As Premier of the most corrupt province in the country he can actually stand there with a straight face and talk about fighting corruption? You can't make this shit up!!

So to underscore the point relating to just 2 of the entire cabinet of in excess of 200, they are ALL complicit in the looting of the state coffers. Period.

No one has been convicted of a crime despite enormous volume of evidence. And no one will be. We have the "Chief Thief" who for a decade "wanted his day in court" and as that became a real prospect he began his plan of evasion that continues still. The narrative of course has changed from
"I want my day in court to prove my innocence"

to one of

"I'm a victim of apartheid style intimidation and abuse of the courts and I will never get a fair trial and I am guilty as far as the courts are concerned before I even have a trial"..... Whatever.

The only hope is that a political party is formed by people like Thuli Madonsela, a woman of ethics and moral fibre who I would personally support and vote for. And that in doing so she would surround herself with equals who are first and foremost true patriots and who have the hopes and aspirations of ALL South Africans uppermost in their plans.

Then purge every single government department, in particular procurement departments, of ALL current staff. Whether one chooses to believe it or not the outright corruption extends all the from mega projects like power stations right the way down to a box of f'ing Bic pens that costs R600 instead of R60.

Sadly, the last 2 paragraphs immediately above are unlikely ever to happen and thus the roller coaster will plunge. The looting will scale up as traditional sources of funding for government are reduced by business and personal tax revenues drying up..... so the "Amazing Super Duper Choc Chip" cookie jar (GEPF) that was previously on the top shelf and under lock and key, will be accessed and the glutons will feast on that until even the crumbs are gone.

During this phase, the connected ones stash their ill gotten stolen fortunes in haven banks in "The West" (ironic isn't it) and when it all turns to shyte they quietly disappear leaving locust like destruction in their wake.

THEN, the traditional continent salute is trotted out..... cupped hands to the IMF / Much Maligned Western Powers with the phrase "give me".

I would LOVE to be proven wrong.
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 9 users Like WIDEOPN-X3's post:
Bmw.wp, Ga-3M, jannie1510, KPM_330, M-factor, Peter@AEW, Spanky, that_guy_Ettiene, UpNcOmiNg!
13-02-2020, 10:39 AM,
#8
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
@ TurboLlew & @WIDEOPN-X3

Great comments - Very well articulated. I concur wholeheartedly.


What's tickling me, personally, more than the 'how' and 'why', since this is indelible history, is 'what do *I* do now and how much time do I have to do it?".

This will in all likelihood end in catastrophe for SA but what is the timescale?

Can I live here in SA for another 20 years, living a good lifestyle in a bubble of my own creation? Or, is this a collapse that will manifest in 2-5 years?

This is keeping me up at night - I need to make a call. And a truly colossal call at that.

Iono

Current:
  • 2011 BMW 135i Coupé (DCT|N55|AL Charge Pipe|Vargas Stage 1|Rogue DP|MHD Stage 2)
  • 2005 Audi B7 A4 2.0TFSI Sedan (6MT|Revo Stage 2|DP|CAI|DTM Springs|Wheel Spacers|PowerBrake)
Ex:
  • 2005 VW Polo Classic 1.6 Comfortline
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2020, 11:30 AM,
#9
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
My parents and sister left over 10 years ago.

I have always told myself that I am living a life here that I cannot live in Australia (helpers, size of house, cars etc). Australia has their own challenges... as do most parts of the world so it isn't all rosy.

It used to be easy to insulate yourself from the worst of South Africa. At this point this is getting harder and harder. Yesterday I was contemplating how abnormal it is that because people know me at the supermarket and thus expect a bigger handout. I have had people come and expect me to buy them food... buy them drinks etc... and I am sometimes terrified that they will then damage my car or target my wife or kids if I don't do it. This never used to be the case.

You then have these absolute morons (I am on the Kyalami Groups) that also guilt trip each other into encouraging this behaviour. A guy in an R8 didn't have money and (when you are in highly identifiable cars) it doesn't matter that you don't have change - he was forced to give a beggar (car guard) R50... and he STILL got reported... you should have read the comments...

Now what happens? If I am in the 4C or M5 you can be labeled many things if you are eg: on a call and don't acknowledge a beggar and one of these social justice warriors records video... I have to buy a coke or something as I am leaving the store (since who the hell carries around cash anymore?) This kind of behaviour is VERY damaging and can end up affecting your job, your family, your standing in the community and religious institutions etc. Another tax... this time imposed by SJWs. None of this is normal.

So the behaviour change is then that I will just go to mall of Africa that costs R10 parking and I don't have to be extorted NOT JUST by the beggars who now expect a whole lot more than R5 or R10... but these people who have no better work to do but target fast or fancy cars and identifiable people so that they feel better about themselves. Kyalami on Main? Dying, Kyalami Downs? Dead. Kyalami Corner? Dying... let's see how this ends when nobody wants to go to any centre that has beggars... sorry car guards. Again none of this is normal.

The reason I say this is that there is all sorts of distorted reality going on in this country... beyond what has ever been seen before. We have turned on each other. Not even on a race basis.

We also have all this violence rooted (I think) in frustration that it is impossible to achieve any meaningful change so we take it out on each other... Someone has something you don't? Can't understand why some have and others don't? Let's tell ourselves comforting lies... or so it used to go. Nowadays there are other ways for people to let out their frustrations... many destructive. Normal people have never behaved this way

Middle class is rapidly diminishing as mentioned above. Rapidly is probably an understatement and what is even worse (that I have seen anyway) are people who have had something and now have less or even nothing. There are elements of society that want nothing more than to make others fail and rejoice in their failure.

Those who are making money are being squeezed of every last cent.

These are underlying sentiments that feed into the overall 'feeling' of living in South Africa at this point. I did get the slides I mentioned in another thread and will host them this afternoon so that we can have a fact based discussion around this as at this point there have been a lot of sentiment and anecdotal evidence in these discussions.

As someone who should be stimulating the economy, instead I have been forced to do the following:

I have totally outgrown my house and can afford to move, but I have not yet moved
I have taken less risky work (while still maintaining a scenario where I don't HAVE to work if it comes to this)
I should be investing in other SA businesses, but instead I have been moving money into other currencies. You see every industry having impact at the moment (IT, Mining, retail you name it)
I should have been investing into business expansion/new businesses but I am terrified to even hire one person... rather working with individuals 'working for themselves' as a collective. One CCMA case can torpedo your entire small business.

People are guilt tripping others now into feeling they are 'abandoning' this country... #ImStaying movement is a case in point. The reason I am suspicious of this is that OF COURSE those who are terrified of more taxpayers leaving will start a movement like this...

In my case I have contributed massively (I feel)... way more than most... I have developed people and I have 'done stuff' of meaning along the way. I feel I get nothing in return and must self-provide for everything I pay taxes for. STILL despite being able to go 10/12 years ago I have given it a chance. Who are these people (the same ones who think I must give R50 to people who are doing literally nothing because I have a nice car) to tell me that I am a coward/giving up/not doing enough? I am over it. I have been positive beyond logic all these years.

Actions speak louder than words and no matter how positive you are, if your best possible scenario comes into being and there is literally zero positive movement, then logic has to take over. The only reason I am still here is because of my wife and her family.

As to how many years you can live a comfortable life? If you are in the elite? Probably indefinitely. If you are upper middle class you might have a couple of years. If you are anywhere below you are probably actually late to leave.

[Image: w0YM6SYl.png]
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 9 users Like TurboLlew's post:
Ashiel, Bmw.wp, Ga-3M, M-factor, Peter@AEW, RAArmstrong, sash, that_guy_Ettiene, WIDEOPN-X3
13-02-2020, 11:55 AM,
#10
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
(13-02-2020, 11:30 AM)TurboLlew Wrote: If you are anywhere below you are probably actually late to leave.

This statement is scarier than most horror movies.

/o(O)(O) \ (lllllllll)(lllllllll) / (O)(O)o\
My thread - sold

Click here to view the network of forums hosted by TheFanatics.co.za | Click here to find out more about advertising on our network of forums | Click here for a list of our current advertisers | Click here for the forum rules and guidelines | Click here and check your region for any past and upcoming events and get-togethers | Click here to find out how to gain ///Member status
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2020, 12:10 PM,
#11
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
In regard to the proposed bailing out of Eskom by the Government Employee's Pension Fund (GEPF) this is particularly close to home and currently a very hot topic at the dinner table.

This will have a direct and significant impact on our family in the immediate aftermath of any confirmation by the state that they will proceed with a ZAR 250billion "investment" in Eskom.

The facts are that that money will simply vanish. Never be seen again. So it's no investment it's a "gift".

Let's remember that Cyril and Co. do not have the balls to do what needs to be done. First smash the unions into line so that they understand where there role is and secondly retrenchment of all surplus staff across ALL government entities.

Neither of the above will ever happen so throwing money at the problem is at best a temporary solution. At worst it speeds up the downgrade and destruction of what little credibility may remain of Brand SA.

My better half has 28yrs of pension contributions in the GEPF. She and many of her colleagues will resign and take their money while there is some in the pot.

However that decision is not taken lightly because we need 2 incomes in our home and the medical aid etc is heavily subsidised as part of the salary package. So it would leave a big hole...
But we are weighing that against the bigger hole that may result from the raiding of the fund longer term.

To use a phrase my dad throws out periodically

"they'll piss in the soup to make it salty"
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes WIDEOPN-X3's post:
Ashiel
13-02-2020, 04:22 PM,
#12
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
@TurboLlew and @Wideopn-X3

You guys have managed to answer questions I didn't even know how to ask after the initial ones. Well thought out responses. Thank you very much

This will stick with me for a while:

"The normalisation of corruption and the development of a culture of corruption are the real reasons we are in the mess we are"

If you are interested in something, No matter what it is
Go at it full speed
Embrace it with both arms
Love it
Live it
Be it
Above all become passionate about it
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2020, 06:00 PM,
#13
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
Llew as always a rational and well structured response.
I certainly enjoy reading your posts.

The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~ Winston Churchill

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it" (Men in Black)




Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Peter@AEW's post:
Dirtydeedsman
14-02-2020, 01:48 AM,
#14
How did the Gupta's do state capture?
(13-02-2020, 06:00 PM)Peter@AEW Wrote: Llew as always a rational and well structured response.
I certainly enjoy reading your posts.


+1

Shop Used Cars
Get Book and Retail values
VIN Number Check Tool
Sell Your Car

Connecting used car buyers and sellers in SA.
[Image: wheelindex-small_5489880032.jpg]
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-02-2020, 08:43 AM,
#15
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
So who else tried to watch the SONA last night??

Underscoring (for me anyway) just how hugely out of touch these elites are with reality.

As regards Eskom there are only low roads. No high road scenario Mr Sunter....

The higher of the 2 low roads is that there are plans to allow municipalities in good standing to procure power from IPPs. Well there are only a handful of such municipalities and aside from the Cape Town Metro (I am open to correction) none of the municipalities in good standing are major customers of Eskom. Strikes me as a lame duck statement Mr President....

The problem is of course that in allowing municipalities to purchase their power from IPPs means they AREN'T buying from Eskom... Go figure. So Eskom revenue falls further thus deepening the cash flow crisis and confirming the need to be bailed out.... Or am I missing something completely????

The lower of the 2 low roads is an extension of the above in that it creates yet again the opportunity to declare a crisis that could plunge the country into chaos as would happen if the grid tripped.... (heard that before?).... So maximum panic and "justification" mixed with fear mongering to force GEPF funds to be thrown into the black abyss that is Eskom and thereby opening the opportunity for the fatcats to loot...... Again.....

Anyway just an opinion....
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes WIDEOPN-X3's post:
Peter@AEW
14-02-2020, 11:47 PM, (This post was last modified: 14-02-2020, 11:49 PM by mattblackza.)
#16
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
I think Llew has answered, quite wonderfully, how the culture of corruption & State Capture exists. But to answer you more directly, “How did they do it?”, well, it was a matter of growth and acquisition.

I’ve got a number of journalist friends who have deduced, speculated and investigated, and this is my understanding of it. I’m going to use some made-up examples in here, as we don’t know the true course or event for some parts.

Part 1. The Arrival

We know the Gupta brothers arrived in South Africa in 1993 from the state of Uttar Pradesh in Indi – the state famous for the Taj Mahal. It is not interesting or unique in any way, a state mostly based on commercial agriculture and some industrial sectors in the city of Allahabad. Think of it as the Mpumalanga of India.

The brothers don’t seem terribly interesting or significant at this point. They were not wealthy by any means, and still to this day don’t speak English terribly well. Sahara computers were established in 1994 as an importer and distributor of computers and computer components. They seemed to have spotted a good opportunity and the business grew. I believe, and I have no proof or disproof of this, that at this point they just wanted to run a basic business and they were doing ok that this.

Part 2. The First Corrupt Move

This dates and parts of this part are not known, and the NPA and journalists may never uncover this golden moment, but there was a point in the latter half of the 1990s that Sahara computers submitted a tender for a small government contract. They won the contract and supplied this entity with computers. So far, nothing of any interest.

The way this played out though, I suspect, is as follows; A Gupta family member began the tender process, intending to compete on the general basis of cost & service and to work from there. Nothing more than supplying a local school with computers or something similarly small.
But a government official saw this new bidder and likely called them up with an offer: For a small free, this local official would ensure that Sahara computers won the tender. Nothing too crazy, just a few thousand Rand off the top of the deal. Who would notice? And if the auditors came around, everyone could show the tender process and, at worst, the deal would be cancelled and we’d just restart the bidding process.

Imagine you’re Ajay Gupta at this point: You’ve just landed a nice contract and all it cost was the bribe fee of the local, underpaid official. Surely this idea can be repeated in other departments & projects? And off they go.
Whoever this single official is, they were the keystone which unlocked South Africa as a piggy bank for the Guptas & their associates. Without this single official, the Guptas would never have had their “man on the inside” as it were.

We don’t know how this played out, but there is a lot of understanding that the story was fairly similar to the above, and Sahara computers grew, and with it, the Guptas wallets and political black book.

Part 3. Meeting High Rollers

In 2003, the Gupta brothers were introduced to Jacob Zuma, at the time the deputy president of the ANC and of South Africa. The relationship bloomed, with the Guptas supporting Zuma during his power-struggle with Thabo Mbeki in the mid-2000s, ultimately resulting in Zuma being elected ANC President in 2007 and president of South Africa in 2009.
These were very much their growth years, meeting people and laying each tentacle into different spheres of government and society, latching onto the tenders that started to float their way.

From here, State Capture took hold. Zuma and his associates were in the pocket of the Guptas. The family was extending its patronage network, pocketing people it met along the way and syphoning off money destined for various public works projects to their own accounts. During this time, they also listed on the JSE, making Ajay Gupta one of the ten wealthiest people in South Africa.

The point where it all started to come undone though, was the infamous Waterkloof landing in 2013. Prior to this, South Africa had sorta known that the government was corrupt and that the Guptas were part of the machine, chugging along, stealing money, but no one knew how to catch anyone with the drugs and the money in the same room.
That plane landing though, showed us that there was one family who had the power to land at our largest military airbase for their own purpose. They were not elected Indian officials or diplomats, but private people who just knew who to call.

From there, various journalists started to untangle the SA corruption web that Llew so perfectly described, and again and again, the Gupta names kept coming up. They left for Dubai after that, Sahara computers collapsed, Oakbay Investments has been in business rescue and the SA economy has been left in a state of near-total collapse.

There was no magic golden moment that these guys decided “Let's go sell computers and do corruption in South Africa!” It was far closer to the way cancer or mould spreads; with one cell turning bad and infecting the cell next to it, and the one next to it and so forth. Eventually, it spreads to the bloodstream and the doctors notice, but at this point its too late and everything is infected.

The end goal was never a defining moment of making a billion dollars or whatever, but a slow process of turning them from your generically corrupt business people to power-hungry criminals, screeching like Gollum for the Precious, and totally drunk on their own power trip. Other CEOs, government officials, auditors and so on were in on the game, getting their slice of the corruption cake and happy to look the other way as long as the protection money kept flowing. I think this was probably their undoing, and they either tried to extort someone a bit too much or stopped someone’s bribery paycheque because of their own greed, and that person started to unwind the system, telling journalists about the Waterkloof landing and the corruption that enabled it.

Undoing it is more complicated than I could hope to imagine or understand, because State Capture was so tied into the entire nation and no single person has the answers to every corrupt touchpoint that took place. Dave Chappelle has a wonderful piece on Apartheid with a similar explanation; that the whole system was corrupt so we had to have the Truth & Reconciliation Commission to try to understand each cell of the system that had taken over.

I hope this adds on to Llews comments.
Website
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 5 users Like mattblackza's post:
Bmw.wp, LOW BOOST, Rory, TurboLlew, WIDEOPN-X3
15-02-2020, 07:36 AM,
#17
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
@MattBalckZA

I enjoyed reading your summary. As regards one sentence

Quote

and all it cost was the bribe fee of the local, underpaid official.

Unquote

In my opinion any official with the ability to swing a tender decision or outcome by virtue of their position is likely at what the government departments title Director or Director General. At that level the salary package is in excess of ZAR 1 million PA now. I think you're bang on the money with respect to there being a "keystone" indvidual. Whether that individual was a Zuma plant or a lone wolf with an idea we'll probably never know. Given the level of animal cunning and street smarts that is a hallmark of JG Zuma I tend to the view that "the keystone" was placed in an obscure department to do the "dummy run". When it worked they became ever more emboldened until we had the full blown runaway corruption we've seen.

The sad part is the patsy whoever he or she may be is likely no longer around so we will never have another Angelo Agrizzi moment where "the keystone" has a Damascus Road moment and tells the nation the whole sordid tale.

So the best we can hope for is that the NPA has been cleaned up and that dots can be connected to bring down king pins.... I'm not optimistic.
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes WIDEOPN-X3's post:
Peter@AEW
15-02-2020, 12:02 PM,
#18
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
(13-02-2020, 11:30 AM)TurboLlew Wrote: You then have these absolute morons (I am on the Kyalami Groups) that also guilt trip each other into encouraging this behaviour. A guy in an R8 didn't have money and (when you are in highly identifiable cars) it doesn't matter that you don't have change - he was forced to give a beggar (car guard) R50... and he STILL got reported... you should have read the comments...

Now what happens? If I am in the 4C or M5 you can be labeled many things if you are eg: on a call and don't acknowledge a beggar and one of these social justice warriors records video... I have to buy a coke or something as I am leaving the store (since who the hell carries around cash anymore?) This kind of behaviour is VERY damaging and can end up affecting your job, your family, your standing in the community and religious institutions etc. Another tax... this time imposed by SJWs. None of this is normal.

Llew, what do you mean by the above? I've never heard of it and it sounds ludicrous, frankly.

I've never given any money to beggars/car guards, and I've never had my car damaged. Definitely have never been publicly shamed, but would love to see how that would play out.
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-02-2020, 07:29 AM,
#19
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
I have said all along that Chief Thief will NEVER see the inside of a prison cell if found guilty.....

Did I call it??

News24 article :

"Jacob Zuma 'too old to go to jail', says Malema"
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-02-2020, 08:38 AM,
#20
RE: How did the Gupta's do state capture?
(15-02-2020, 12:02 PM)GravityLee Wrote:
(13-02-2020, 11:30 AM)TurboLlew Wrote: You then have these absolute morons (I am on the Kyalami Groups) that also guilt trip each other into encouraging this behaviour. A guy in an R8 didn't have money and (when you are in highly identifiable cars) it doesn't matter that you don't have change - he was forced to give a beggar (car guard) R50... and he STILL got reported... you should have read the comments...

Now what happens? If I am in the 4C or M5 you can be labeled many things if you are eg: on a call and don't acknowledge a beggar and one of these social justice warriors records video... I have to buy a coke or something as I am leaving the store (since who the hell carries around cash anymore?) This kind of behaviour is VERY damaging and can end up affecting your job, your family, your standing in the community and religious institutions etc. Another tax... this time imposed by SJWs. None of this is normal.

Llew, what do you mean by the above? I've never heard of it and it sounds ludicrous, frankly.

I've never given any money to beggars/car guards, and I've never had my car damaged. Definitely have never been publicly shamed, but would love to see how that would play out.

There are a number of very people across whatsapp groups and the neighborhood groups on facebook. There are a few on the security groups as well. These people really have nothing better to do and take it upon themselves to ensure everyone conforms to their ideal reality... one of these 'checks' is paying car guards and beggars what they feel is 'right'. It is not even enough that you give "something" Some group admins delete these and others encourage them.

@Nikhil is on a few of these groups with me and has seen them I am sure. If you are in a nice car, god help you.

They will take pics of your car... they will find your facebook profile... they will find out your number... they will write very colourful stories about what they think they see. They do this not knowing whether you normally actually pay car guards or not... the hate inside them is great enough that they want to actively ruin someone's life with lies and misrepresentation.

One went on a tirade about how you shouldn't just give R5 to a beggar if you're in an expensive car (but of course if you're in a Nissan Micra but live in the equestrian estate with R20M+ houses you're exempt from this 'rule'). People joined in about how car guards have to pay shopping centres to be on the premises and into great detail about how it somehow COSTS car guards money to work at the shopping centre. Now this (being Kyalami) is horseshit because maybe you don't have change but another dude is giving R10 and a car guard (from Carte Blanche a few years back) earns more than some of you reading this in higher income areas.

I say 'earn' but reality is they are beggars. My hairdresser at Kyalami on main told me about 3 occasions last year where there were incidents and every car guard (and centre security) literally disappeared as it was happening and reappeared afterwards... definitely a service worth R50 for 15 minutes... My dentist has also moved from that centre as clients no longer wanted to go there.

Of course one of these guys who has enough time to take pics of cars not paying people has enough time to get the details of this from the car guards together with their life stories... These folks taking pics and making up stories HATE that you're in a nice car, HATE that you have to also live around them and will find any way to mess up your day or worse. This is an easy way because there are results every time... and you see the REAL mentality of your neighbors... even if the admin deletes posts eventually. We have also been conditioned to feel bad to have nice things... and this feeds into this toxic situation as well.

It doesn't matter if you're donating R200K a year to feeding kids, you're fair game for these muppets...

Of course this now has a knock on effect with guards and beggars expecting more and more and getting aggressive if you give nothing or 'too little'. I am not kidding when I am telling you my personal experience has been eg: followed into a shop by a beggar and asked to buy food... and not cheap food - security does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If I then sought out security and asked them to do something I would still have to see this beggar every day of my life as every other apologist in the area is forking out money to him so he won't leave. If he does something and is removed by the police, then there will be another of these SJWs taking pics and making up a story about how the police are stealing his livelihood. I would rather just not go there anymore than get into this exhausting situation. These people have the time... I don't.

I have also been asked by beggars to make a plan and stop at the ATM across the road. I am sure I've had my turn of being shamed on some of these groups that I am not on.

You can find the same smug faux-activist sentiment at the core of that absurd movement in December where people were tipping wait staff 100% and then posting it on Facebook. Then it wasn't enough that people were tipping 100%, some went further and started tipping even more... I am also 99% sure they were not ACTUALLY tipping that much and just doing it for social media...

This is also area-specific, but God help you if you go within 5m of a horse... There was one incident where a rider lost control of the horse and it randomly bolted onto the road. Rational people were saying well there isn't anything the driver could have done because the horse literally ran out of nowhere at pace... These comments were actually getting deleted. It became about the car driver speeding, looking at his cellphone, a horrible piece of human filth who didn't care about gentle horses (despite the rider saying IN THE POST that something spooked the horse and he had no idea what). THEN another of these morons posts in this same thread that as part of a prior incident her poor friend was sued by the BMW driver who was heartless and cruel as she had lost her poor 'baby'... Now if you were a road user who had a horse bolt in front of you and you had hit it and damaged your car, you would claim from your insurer. The insurer would then investigate and sue the other party. This is normal... Don't even try to get into that argument - you hit a horse so you shouldn't be claiming from your insurance it seems...

See, the Kyalami Ninjas are not the only crazy part about living here!

[Image: w0YM6SYl.png]
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes TurboLlew's post:
ChefDJ




Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

Return to Top