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Insured Values
24-10-2019, 11:46 AM, (This post was last modified: 24-10-2019, 11:51 AM by WIDEOPN-X3.)
#1
Insured Values
Fanatics I want to share an experience with you all and hopefully in doing so get some meaningful input from the Insurance broker / underwriter gurus among our ranks. Forgive the (slightly) long-winded post but the background is important.

Background

My dad has (actually hadBlueCry) a 2010 320d Auto - plain Jane base spec with only options fitted being front and rear PDC, bluetooth and 17in Style 285 rims. Was delivered ex factory as described and bought from Autobahn in 2010.

I have the 2012 320d Msport - additional extras of sunroof, rear PDC, 18in 193's narrow wide combo.

Both cars were insured albeit with different Underwriters for retail value. I never actually asked my dad what the sum insured was on his car however on my policy it reflects as ZAR 150 400.00 - this was basis annual renewal now in September 2019.

In regard to my car, i was comfortable that the sum insured was correct based on the prices being asked and achieved for sales of similar spec vehicles.

Unfortunate Loss
So three weeks back, my dad's car gets totalled; a guy jumped a red robot and smacked into the front of the car. Gets assessed and declared uneconomical to repair. This was the first time I actually started to discuss values etc with my dad. From my perspective it was to prepare him for a bit of a shock as to what he might expect to receive as a payout.

Now, much like my 320d, my dad's car was in immaculate condition (assessor specifically commented that he'd not seen a 9 yr old 3 series in such immaculate condition inside and out) however at the end of the day, the car was insured for "retail value" and since my 2 yr newer, much better spec'd 320d was insured for only ZAR 150 400.00, I said to him to expect around the ZAR 110 to 120k mark.

The Surprise

Last week Friday I get a call from my dad to say he'd received the notification of settlement offer from his insurer - sit down he says to me - ZAR 157 300.00. To say I was pleasantly surprised for his windfall would be an understatement and I suggested that he sign and return the forms ASAP!!!

Of course this pleasant surprise for my dad is great however when the "excitement" subsided, I became very concerned about my insured value prompting a Monday morning phone call and since then 3 days of emails back and forth with my broker.

As of 15 min ago, my 320d M Sport is insured for "correct" full retail value of... wait for it....


ZAR 223 000.00!!!!!!!!!!! dunno anymoredunno anymore



Comments Required from Brokers / Underwriters.

Okay so first some context to the above sum insured being raised. Firstly, the Broker had to concede that the value they had (ZAR 150400) was incorrect and did not cater for any extras. Says I in response to that part "Well guys, the vehicle DESCRIPTION in the policy is correct ie "2012 BMW 320d Sport A/T" (we could split hairs and say it says Sport not MSport). So my question is why was the correct value not attached at the very least on the basis that it was not a "base model" but indeed an MSport which at purchase was a ZAR 27 000.00 option.

Bottom line it was an error however it was an error that could have proven VERY costly for me on the basis of under-insurance and thus pro-rata payout based on percentage "under-insurance".

So the Broker has amended the policy to ZAR 223 000.00 which I am advised covers the factory fitted extras as per Mead McGrouther.

This brings me to the next point; I am quite happy to have the car insured at that value provided there is a confirmation that
a) the value is correct and
b) that should the car be declared a total loss or stolen and not recovered

I will be paid a sum of ZAR 223 000.00 adjusted monthly for the next 12 months.

I have received that written confirmation. =)


But now to the crux of this whole longwinded post. I have to ask WHERE THE F**K do Mead & McGrouther get these values from???? Hammerhead

I said to the Broker it is not rocket science to see what the retail market value is of ANY car. Simply look on any of the major car sales platforms (Autotrader / Cars.co.za etc) and one can see what the asking price is and that is not necessarily the SELLING PRICE which at the end of the day is the RETAIL value surely??

So in the case of my 320d, the asking prices for similar spec'd cars ranges between ZAR140 and 150k. I have asked ZAR140k on the Forum and had zero interest while Silverbird sold his quite quickly however I don't know for how much.

On the basis of the above paragraph can someone in the know help a simple oke like me understand just how on earth the "Book values" are determined because from what I can see, there's a total disconnect with reality.

As a final thought, I would suggest that it may be a very good idea just to double check that the sum insured for your vehicles are indeed correct and include the factory / specified extras correctly.

One doesn't want a nasty surprise in the event of a loss Thumbs
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24-10-2019, 12:22 PM,
#2
RE: Insured Values
Interesting post, glad you got things sorted before you need it.

I think more often than not people overlook the small print, and don't double check things on their policies. I can understand why, I'm busy with my policy renewal now (for November onwards), and my Schedule is 29 pages long! Why I don't know. I still need to read it.

In contrast to your situation, I've gone the opposite route on the X3, whereby the M&M values are higher than what I see in the market / classifieds, so I have actually instructed to insure the vehicle for less than the M&M values (but in line with market values).

As you mentioned as well, it's advisable to check that the vehicles are insured for respective options / mods. On the M, the insured value jumps up quite a bit for the Akra exhaust and Competition rims.

Same thing on my Ute: a 2007 Base Utility retails for R44100, but with all my extras and mods specified, my insured value is around R100k.

I chat regularly with my broker and it seems that there is a trend to be stricter on insured and specified items due to the rampant fraud and dishonestly circulating in the industry.

2011 E90 M3 M-DCT Build thread here
2011 F25 X3 35i M-Sport Build thread here
2007 E87 130i M-Sport: Alpine Upgrade, BMWP Intake, BMWP Exhaust Build thread here
2007 Corsa C Ute 2l 16v Tebbo Bluebiggrin : Build thread Here
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WIDEOPN-X3
24-10-2019, 12:53 PM, (This post was last modified: 24-10-2019, 12:53 PM by KPM_330.)
#3
RE: Insured Values
I would be interested to know how you got from the original value of R150k to the new value of R220k.. That is a massive jump!

Seems like the value for a F30 320d, they launched in 2012 as well.. I am sure you wouldn't have overlooked the chassis designation, so very curious.

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24-10-2019, 12:57 PM, (This post was last modified: 24-10-2019, 01:03 PM by WIDEOPN-X3.)
#4
RE: Insured Values
I cant edit my post anymore but I see I made an error. Below is copy and paste off the policy. It clearly states E90

2012 BMW 320d SPORT A/T (E90) NU65069 223,365
Cover Comprehensive
Use Private
Inception Date 12/08/2016


And to reiterate, I am not the one telling the Broker what the car is. I got a full printout of the car spec "as sold" from the dealer and the Broker went and got the values. This is the crux of the original post. The Broker assures me that they have entered the information correctly in Mead & Mc Grouther / Trans Union and this is the value it spits out.

I have actually asked the question as to whether they perhaps put in F30 and am assured not.

I have pointed out that in the event that I incur a total loss, I am not obliged to accept the settlement but can request that the Underwriter replace the vehicle with a similar vehicle. In such circumstances, based on prices being obtained, I would pay premium on a value of ZAR223k but they could go out and buy one for ZAR 150k to put on my driveway and thus "score" ZAR70k omg waiting
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KPM_330
24-10-2019, 01:17 PM, (This post was last modified: 24-10-2019, 01:22 PM by Silverbird_96kw.)
#5
RE: Insured Values
But the Msport Package already includes all the extras in the MM code, so what other extras are they adding up then?

Below Values are for a 2012 F30 Msport Auto
Trade Value 163640.00
Retail Value 198350.00

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24-10-2019, 01:46 PM,
#6
RE: Insured Values
(24-10-2019, 12:57 PM)WIDEOPN-X3 Wrote: I cant edit my post anymore but I see I made an error. Below is copy and paste off the policy. It clearly states E90

2012 BMW 320d SPORT A/T (E90) NU65069 223,365
Cover Comprehensive
Use Private
Inception Date 12/08/2016


And to reiterate, I am not the one telling the Broker what the car is. I got a full printout of the car spec "as sold" from the dealer and the Broker went and got the values. This is the crux of the original post. The Broker assures me that they have entered the information correctly in Mead & Mc Grouther / Trans Union and this is the value it spits out.

I have actually asked the question as to whether they perhaps put in F30 and am assured not.

I have pointed out that in the event that I incur a total loss, I am not obliged to accept the settlement but can request that the Underwriter replace the vehicle with a similar vehicle. In such circumstances, based on prices being obtained, I would pay premium on a value of ZAR223k but they could go out and buy one for ZAR 150k to put on my driveway and thus "score" ZAR70k omg waiting

So now that your insured sum has increased by 70k...i assume your monthly premium has increased as well? Skit

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24-10-2019, 02:24 PM,
#7
RE: Insured Values
Ironically it hasn't increased by a significant amount.

But there's no way that the value is correct. It cannot be. But the ball is in the Underwriters court now.
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24-10-2019, 02:39 PM,
#8
RE: Insured Values
All the cars I have purchased were always insured for retail, and always more than what I paid for them. When purchasing i just send the OTP to the Insurer, get my quote on the premium and what value is quoted. They note all the extras off the OTP. When I get the policy I always read it thoroughly checking for errors as well.

Its worrying that your broker overlooked the correct value. What else in your policy wording is dodge ?

Melbourne Red X3 ///M Sport

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24-10-2019, 02:41 PM,
#9
Insured Values
Definitely a mistake somewhere along the line.

Heres some pics i just took of the transunion book. Note that this is from May 2019 so values would have dropped even more now.
[Image: 4e993cbd56e651e16aff8d20fb732811.jpg][Image: 0dff9fc2ef41e7a407993d881fe57eed.jpg][Image: 7889521b537051f6cd02b9e18a980aed.jpg]

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WIDEOPN-X3
24-10-2019, 03:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 24-10-2019, 03:41 PM by WIDEOPN-X3.)
#10
RE: Insured Values
@Rodga. Thanks for this info it's very helpful and what it confirms is that the value that the car was insured for ie ZAR 150300 is correct.

What it doesn't help with is to explain why my dad got paid out ZAR 157k for a 2 yr older car with a much lesser spec.

Maybe he got lucky Rofl


PS to the previous message above. I notice that the power output on the book you show is 130kw whereas the last year or so was uprated to 135kw 380nm
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25-10-2019, 05:55 AM, (This post was last modified: 25-10-2019, 05:56 AM by WIDEOPN-X3.)
#11
RE: Insured Values
@gavsadler

"In contrast to your situation, I've gone the opposite route on the X3, whereby the M&M values are higher than what I see in the market / classifieds, so I have actually instructed to insure the vehicle for less than the M&M values (but in line with market values)."

I had this discussion several times with my broker when I had my high miler X3 on the basis of the value vs the book value. I wanted to do exactly what you suggest that you have done on your X3 and I was told that I would be under insured and therefore any claim would be pro rata by the deemed percentage of under insurance Fencelook
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29-10-2019, 09:36 PM, (This post was last modified: 29-10-2019, 09:37 PM by kingr.)
#12
RE: Insured Values
A couple of pointers from me.

1) Obviously the insured value of R223 000.00 is far off from what the replacement cost for a similar car will be (private/dealership). I have no idea how Transunion get to this value(we are not affiliated with them).

2) " it is not rocket science to see what the retail market value is of ANY car. Simply look on any of the major car sales platforms (Autotrader / Cars.co.za etc) a" This is not an accurate way to determine the retail value of a car. Problem comes in with cars that sell above or below retail value. Review the retail value of outliers like the Ford Mk2 Focus RS and Audi RS3(any model) and try to buy them for retail. They sell way above retail. Then cars like Audi Q7 & MB CLA (45 & normal models) sell way below retail. At the end of the day retail value is purely a guideline for dealers, cars sell at market value - that's the price someone is willing to pay for the car whether it's a private or dealership deal.

3) Agree everyone should check their policies and make sure they are not over / underinsured.

4) Not all insurance companies insure cars at Retail, some will do a market value too. The challenge is that sometimes after the insurance pays out Retail you cannot go into a dealership and buy the same car you had for that money. This is especially the case if you have a well looked after, accident-free, low mileage car.

5) Book and Retail values are purely there for guidance. Dealerships are selling Gti's in this country every day well above Retail laughing to the bank.

Shop Used Cars
Get Book and Retail values
VIN Number Check Tool
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Connecting used car buyers and sellers in SA.
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30-10-2019, 06:54 AM, (This post was last modified: 30-10-2019, 06:55 AM by johndoe.)
#13
RE: Insured Values
you're lucky Bravo

I need to go and get my cars valuated and a certificate issued for each of them before insurance want to bump them up to replacement value... omg waiting

Current: 2005 E55 AMG
Current: 2007 ///M Coupe
Current: 2019 Fortuner 4x4

Ex: 1998 BMW M3
Ex: 2011 REVO 2 Focus ST - 208wkw & 465nm's (FRnR)
Ex: 1994 E36 328i Track Car (Budler Motorsport built)
Ex: 2011 REVO 2 Mk6 GTI DSG - 200wkw & 452nm's (KAR)
Ex: 2007 REVO 2+ S3 - 12.7s @ 176km/h (Tarlton 2010) and 224km's on 1km (ODI 2010)
Ex: 2006 Velo 1.6i | 2008 Velo 1.6i | 2005 Velo 1.4i | 2006 Polo 1.6i | 2012 Polo TDI | 2004 W203 C200K
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30-10-2019, 08:17 AM, (This post was last modified: 30-10-2019, 08:19 AM by MR_Y.)
#14
RE: Insured Values
Just my 2c to add.
On my 2013 TT 1.8TFSI S-TRONIC Mk2, my insurer had insured it at the full sales price when I bought the car.
On calling them 1 year later to reduce my premium, I was advised that my particular model sold in too low numbers and that they did not have any used retail or trade value listed on my car.
The burden of proof fell upon me to show them proof of the latest retail and trade values. Which I thought was a dick move, given that if the car had been written off then they would have got their assessors to perform a quick valuation and I would have ended up receiving a claim of a value less than what my premiums were calculated on!
Anyway, I had to get a used car valuation from Audi and send that to my insurer and then I had to ensure that that valuation was updated every 6 months, so that my insurer was accurately pricing my insurance premium based on the current value (I was covered on retail value).

When I bought my 320d, this problem fell away given the plethora of cars on the used market.

By the the time I had bought my V60 CC Polestar optimised D4 AWD, I had switched insurers twice and my current insurer is great. Even though my car is a low volume car (much like the TT 1.8TFSI Mk2), they made the effort to obtain the correct value and automatically update it every few months.

Current: 2016 Volvo V60 C.C. D4 AWD Polestar
Current (SO): 2016 Mazda CX5 2.0 Active Auto
Ex: 2017 320d M-Sport Sports Auto
Ex: 2013 Audi TT 1.8 TFSI S-Tronic
Ex (SO): 2014 Audi A3 1.4 TFSI SE Sedan (M)
Ex (SO): 2011 Ford Focus 1.8Si (M)
Ex: 2010 Audi A4 1.8 TFSI Ambition (M)
Ex: 2007 Volvo C30 2.0i (M)
Ex: 2005 Opel Astra Classic 1.6i Club (M)

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30-10-2019, 01:22 PM,
#15
RE: Insured Values
Don't know why it doesnt pull the post through on "Reply" anymore but anyway I have copied and pasted your post @KingR and inserted my comments below


A couple of pointers from me.

1) Obviously the insured value of R223 000.00 is far off from what the replacement cost for a similar car will be (private/dealership). I have no idea how Transunion get to this value(we are not affiliated with them).

Agreed and this has now been corrected to ZAR 171k - still too high in my view however the premium is only a few Rand up so I'll live with it.

2) " it is not rocket science to see what the retail market value is of ANY car. Simply look on any of the major car sales platforms (Autotrader / Cars.co.za etc) a" This is not an accurate way to determine the retail value of a car. Problem comes in with cars that sell above or below retail value. Review the retail value of outliers like the Ford Mk2 Focus RS and Audi RS3(any model) and try to buy them for retail. They sell way above retail. Then cars like Audi Q7 & MB CLA (45 & normal models) sell way below retail. At the end of the day retail value is purely a guideline for dealers, cars sell at market value - that's the price someone is willing to pay for the car whether it's a private or dealership deal.

A few points here. If the book is "purely a guideline" then how come dealers will use it to SELL but not to trade in a car?? Look at Cars.co.za and you will see most of the E90 320d M Sport units for sale by dealers at or slightly below "retail". For shits and giggles I asked Supertech BMW for a trade in value on a new 320d and they offered me ZAR 80Krage...after telling me "wow its a very clean example"...ragerage.

3) Agree everyone should check their policies and make sure they are not over / underinsured.

4) Not all insurance companies insure cars at Retail, some will do a market value too. The challenge is that sometimes after the insurance pays out Retail you cannot go into a dealership and buy the same car you had for that money. This is especially the case if you have a well looked after, accident-free, low mileage car.

I reiterated that one is not obliged to accept settlement in cash from an insurer. In your scenario above where I presume you are suggesting that the if the insurer settles what they believe to be "retail" and it undershoots what you had the car insured for?? In such circumstances, one is entitled to insist that the insurer replace the car. Don't want cash. Want car. End of.

5) Book and Retail values are purely there for guidance. Dealerships are selling Gti's in this country every day well above Retail laughing to the bank.

This perhaps highlights my point that the "book" is an utter waste of time and indeed underscores my point that the market value is what the market will pay for a specific car surely?? I was given to understand that the values as illustrated in "the book" were derived from information received from the dealers as to trade in and retail out prices for any given car over a period of the preceding period?? Is that incorrect?? If incorrect then where / how are these values obtained??


Remains to me an interesting subject and one I struggle to get my head aroundRofl
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