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Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
26-05-2017, 03:43 AM
Post: #1
Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Greetings from down under,

We have recently had an E34 M5 ex South Africa turn up for sale in the local forums, it's a bit of an odd one though as it sat in storage for 8 years, and other than badging and engine, it has no proof of its M5 Status, the VIN plate looks wrong to me, and the VIN Number doesn't match the format, or sequence of any of the VINS, which are all known and listed here: http://www.m5portal.com/forum/ckdlimoregsa.asp
[Image: e34vin_3103120750.jpg]

It's on our local ebay type site Trademe http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing....ermanent=0

I approached the seller and had the following conversation;

[Image: e34convo_8307482167.jpg]

It just doesn't sit right to me, the world is full of a million non M/Alpina etc BMW with M & Alpina badges, and I'm wary that this is a slightly more elaborate false M.

Can anyone share any thoughts?
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26-05-2017, 06:14 AM
Post: #2
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Go to http://www.realoem.com, then the classic section, put the last seven digits of the VIN in and see what it brings up.
This would be a good start to your search for clarity and peace of mind.

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26-05-2017, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2017 06:24 AM by cpjfox.)
Post: #3
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
I should have mentioned, when the VIN is searched, other than the fact it is not on the E34 M5 register, and does not match the format, it comes up as an E28 5 series, or sometimes an E34 520. Which the vendor explains away as 'weird south african vin number stuff, happens all the time, especially to E30's'.

Please trust me, I've done my due diligence, everything points to this not being what the vendor says it is, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that something different does happen in South Africa, and that a forum member here can shed some light on it.

[Image: real oem_9215265722.jpg]

The vendor says that the VIN was re-issued on the plate (as in the message text above, due to a theft/writeoff situation ZA side), but he also says it matches the VIN in several places on the car, I've asked for photos of Chassis printed VIN's and he hasn't complied as of yet.
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bil 4afe
26-05-2017, 07:14 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2017 07:21 AM by Peter@AEW.)
Post: #4
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Some of the early E34 cars had E28 chassis numbers so Realoem is not going to verify authenticity.

The South African E28 M5 cars all reflect as 535 chassis so Realoem will bring them up as 535 cars and so will the BMW Agents in South Africa.

If a car is stolen and recovered it will not be given a new chassis number by BMW but will get a new chassis number stamped by the police.

That chassis tag looks peculiar.

I would have serious reservations as to the cars authenticity

The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~ Winston Churchill


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26-05-2017, 07:48 AM
Post: #5
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Quote:"I have been in contact with BMWSA, who wont give me the details, as I am not the original owner"

I call BS. If you are unwilling/too lazy to at least provide full transparency on your car to assist the prospective buyer you cant expect to get your asking price.

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26-05-2017, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2017 08:45 AM by Fordkoppie.)
Post: #6
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
I owned BB77019 and my friend had BB77006 which you will agree makes them some of the very first cars. Both cars had vin plates that only states “M5”.... Not “535i M5”
Both were assembled and registered in 1991, and the one you are looking at is a mid 1990 built car.

In SA, they were built from CKD kits, and the body was basically a regular 535i that were manufactured in the Rosslyn body shop, albeit with a unique M5 vin sequence. Then put on a side line where the M5 bits were assembled into the regular 535 shell.

Now I dont want to say this is the gospel truth, BUT, there is a possibility that this might have been one of the "pre production" models or "prototypes" if you will, and thus not strange to have a non M5 vin number.

In SA, it was customary to etch the vin number on all of the vehicle's glass, so that should be relatively easy to see if the vin plate number matches that of the windows and the stamped number on the shock tower.

The most likely possibility is that the original M5 was written off, and re-shelled on a 535i donor body.

Even if this might be the case, I wouldn't let that put me off if the car is in pristine condition, because it would be identical to what the factory did in SA....... just someone did it in their garage. The car does appear to have every M5 specific part attached, so if it was a shell swap, someone went through a lot of trouble to do it properly.

I would have gone and inspected the car from underneath to make sure it has the M5 specific adjustable trailing arms, Rear SLS, the G280 gearbox, M5 aluminum control arms, M5 brakes etc, and if all these things check out, take it.

As Peter already confirmed, they wouldn't change the entire VIN to something that matches exactly a 535i if it was stolen..... It would have received AAPV prefix and maybe something added to the end as well.

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26-05-2017, 10:12 AM
Post: #7
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
My 1991 model was BB77083 and showed M5 on the VIN tag. Friend of mine had a 1993 model, not exactly sure of the VIN. His VIN tag showed 535 M5 though.
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26-05-2017, 10:18 PM
Post: #8
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
[Image: img_6802_4742396697.png]

On the BMW VIN Decode App it shows the above

If I take other VIN numbers give above I get the following:
[Image: img_6803_572010176.png][Image: img_6804_3634439981.png][Image: img_6805_4473399366.png]

2006 E46 M3
1994 E36 M3
2005 Yamaha Raptor 660


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2013 F30 335i M-Sport M-Performance
2011 Toyota Hilux 3.0D4D D/C
2010 VW Golf 6 GTi DSG
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26-05-2017, 10:37 PM
Post: #9
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Would Coisman not be able to assist with something like this?

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27-05-2017, 12:46 AM
Post: #10
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
The E34 M5 from South Africa have sequential VINs from BB77001 to BB77265

In theory one of those VINs should be on the chassis somewhere, it really does look like a reshell.

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27-05-2017, 04:13 AM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2017 04:14 AM by zippy320.)
Post: #11
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Why does the Plate not have weights on it? Every Plate I have ever seen has the weights stamped or printed on it.. this one seems to be missing?

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27-05-2017, 04:35 AM
Post: #12
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Aparently the chassis VIN matches the odd plate, but he won't post pics of it... I'd hate to someone pay M5 money for a very thorough replica.

[Image: img_2048_7775633484.png]
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16-06-2017, 01:44 AM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2017 01:49 AM by gtstarped.)
Post: #13
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Hi guys,

So I'll out myself as the current owner of this SA E34 M5 with 92k. Before I tell you, I feel my integrity has been questioned by some somewhat simple minded people that have a "computer says know" attitude. I currently own this as well as a genuine UK E28 M5, E60 M5 and a E28 M535i with a S38B36 I built myself. I'm no clown and no "dodgy" character.

I bought the vehicle in the spur of the moment which had been off the road for 8 years with intentions of keeping and recommissioning, however the E34 really doesn't give me the fizz so I've decided to move it on.

What I know
- 1991 car imported to NZ in 1994 (strange for such a new high end car)
- The 0BF92279 was checked at the NZ border in 94 and is stamped on the fire wall and on the vin plate. The reason I did not upload is I didn't want to waste my time forefilling peoples needs for a witch hunt.
- Here is the current listing with a photo of the speedo movement http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing....1346332490
- The car was off the road for circa 8 years as it has substantual rust under the floors, rear window and under boot. This has now been recommissioned.
- The car went to a guy called Gavin Bellars over here who tunes all the BMW race cars and was an ex-SA BMW mechanic. His view was it was genuine when he was pulling the dash apart to rewire the speed which failed.
- The vins on the windows have all been removed and polished out pointing to early deception, however this would have been pre 94 import.
- Car has self levelling, 280 box and all the M5 stuff. I have no identications that its been a repainted shell or anything and ha genuine M5 sticker info inside the door
- The vin on the DME does not match the chassis but is a E34 M5 computer
- There is no indication of tampering where ever I can see cause if a E34 535i it would need the self leveling installed, new ABS pump and a lot of other stuff to make it a reshell.
- I contacted BMW SA three time, 1 they said I needed to prove ownership so I sent my ID and ownership papers, no reply. Sent another email and again no reply. BMW NZ can't help.

I'm currently work through someone in the know over here to verify the story I was told which was that the previous owner did a lot of research years back and worked out it was stolen very early in its life, and what happened happened to make it work to export to NZ and maybe wasn't able or wanted back on the road in SA.

What ever the answer we will get there but not by people who are on a witch hunt without all the info or a set of balls to pick up the phone.

My opinion is it is genuine, but there is some undiscovered or unverified story on how it came to be.

Below is some info for complete transpherency and if anyone can genuinely help that would be great. I would appreciate the knowledge directly however to timandrewwilson@gmail.com.

Tim

[Image: img_0931_2301609870.jpg][Image: img_0932_66026630.jpg][Image: img_0933_9789418964.jpg][Image: img_1300_4959317245.jpg]

Further to this, if there are any other vin chassis number stampings on a car from SA that I don't know, feel free to contact me and I'll take a look. Cheers
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16-06-2017, 01:58 AM
Post: #14
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Hi gtstarped,

Simple minded BMW enthusiast reporting for duty.

It's not just computers saying no, it's your first buyer, and some people with real experience.

I was trying out of respect to have this discussion off the NZ forums for the sake of your and the cars reputation, nothing has been forthcoming to verify your claims though, I want them verified, but I want the truth more.
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16-06-2017, 02:28 AM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2017 02:29 AM by gtstarped.)
Post: #15
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
(16-06-2017 01:58 AM)cpjfox Wrote:  Hi gtstarped,

Simple minded BMW enthusiast reporting for duty.

It's not just computers saying no, it's your first buyer, and some people with real experience.

I was trying out of respect to have this discussion off the NZ forums for the sake of your and the cars reputation, nothing has been forthcoming to verify your claims though, I want them verified, but I want the truth more.

The real question is why, why the motivation to prove or disprove. You're clearly not interested in purchasing it so why? Not sure your were respecting me or the car ?? http://bimmersport.co.nz/topic/58337-importing-e34/

I think possibly the responsibility now with your supposed "people with real experience" is to prove the story I was told isn't true and unvail the witch hunt? The worlds a small place my friend and trying to respect country for the sake of the cars reputation just doesn't work. I'm a big boy and can take the truth, in reality the car is worth more in parts possibly anyhow. And like has been said, was an E34 M5 a re-shell anyhow?

Although we are yet to prove it makes full sense

- Stolen and recovered
- to remain a genuine M5 they re-stamped it an acquired a new Vin tag legimately from BMW, removed the itching from the windows
- Little work with good result

Make a whole lot more sense than

- M5 Crashed
- 3 year old 535i full stripped down, suspension, motor, interior, and anything else. Have your every actually done this, I have and this would be hundred and hundred of hours to get it right when putting into shell
- FULL conversion done and effectively a clone
- Some how got a chassis plate from BMW and reitched

Hmmm

I'm happy to find out what I can and will accept with proof. It makes it very hard however to ascertain anything without previous owners having kept documentation. Unfortunately there was a time when these were not very import to the world.
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16-06-2017, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2017 03:35 AM by gtstarped.)
Post: #16
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
Few more photos of M5 specific stuff. I also have the wiring being repair for the rear heat head rest adjustment

[Image: 20170616_131826_3222238994.jpg][Image: 20170616_131920_3511654403.jpg][Image: 20170616_131259_6137619460.jpg][Image: 20170616_131319_9640480377.jpg][Image: 20170616_131221_120746623.jpg]

Also you may not that the vin report below is not full completed as it would normally be, pointing to it being used for some other purpose maybe??
Vehicle information
VIN ZBADC88030BF92279
Type code DC88
Type 535 I A (EUR)
E series E28 ()
Series 5
Type LIM
Steering RL
Doors 4
Engine M30
Displacement 3.50
Power 0
Drive HECK
Transmission AUT
Colour ( *)
Upholstery ( *)
Prod.date 1990-08-20
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20-06-2017, 10:44 PM
Post: #17
Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
I may be wrong but I don't think any of the S.A M5's have a rear window stop light. Only the wide grille e34's have the stop light, and e36 mirrors.


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20-06-2017, 10:57 PM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2017 10:58 PM by gtstarped.)
Post: #18
RE: Can you help prove or disprove ZA E34 M5 CKD as real or fake?
(20-06-2017 10:44 PM)tyu333 Wrote:  I may be wrong but I don't think any of the S.A M5's have a rear window stop light. Only the wide grille e34's have the stop light, and e36 mirrors.


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Yep it has one although Nz law to have some so possibly added here. Currently in communication with BMW SA after my 4th email. May have firm answers soon. Cheers
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